Gesprek met mevrouw Tsikhanouskaya, leider van de democratische oppositie uit Belarus

[0:00:00] Oké, dat is goed.

[0:00:02] Ik begrijp dat het niet je eerste keer hier in de Parlement,

[0:00:05] en ik begrijp dat je al met mijn collega van der Werf al met meneer van der Werf.

[0:00:10] Een heel warm welkom naar Nederland, naar de Nederlandse Parlement.

[0:00:15] We zijn heel honoured om je te horen en je delegatie hier in deze commissie meeting.

[0:00:26] I'll say again

[0:00:27] because this is your fourth visit to the Netherlands

[0:00:30] to the House of Representatives

[0:00:32] you are becoming a regular guest for us

[0:00:34] not for me because I've been in Parliament

[0:00:36] only for 13 weeks

[0:00:37] but I hope to see you again

[0:00:40] very happy that you have

[0:00:42] taken the time to talk with us

[0:00:45] my name is

[0:00:46] Nicole Maas

[0:00:48] I will chair this meeting

[0:00:49] I'm also a member of Parliament

[0:00:51] from the Liberal Party

[0:00:53] En we hebben twee meer members van de Parlement,

[0:00:57] Mrs. van der Werf en Mrs. Kreuger.

[0:00:59] En ik bedoel dat er al een andere member van de Parlement

[0:01:02] zal ons misschien nog een beetje later joinen.

[0:01:07] Ik zou echt willen horen,

[0:01:10] maar ook van jullie willen horen,

[0:01:13] waar jullie staan, wat jullie hebben gedaan in de past tijd

[0:01:18] en hoe de situatie is in Belarus.

[0:01:21] Ik begrijp dat je uit de Ukraine komt, dus het is ook heel interessant om ons te horen over je experience daar.

[0:01:27] Especially omdat we een debatje over de Ukraine volgende week in onze commissie.

[0:01:33] Zullen we beginnen met je de vloer en dan we gaan de vloer aan mijn collega's parlementariens om te vragen te vragen.

[0:01:41] Maar please take je tijd om een kort introductie over waar je bent.

[0:02:16] Dank u wel.

[0:02:18] van die, die van de heel eerste dagen begonnen hebben om ons te ondersteunen.

[0:02:22] En de hele tijd de Nederlandse position was sterk,

[0:02:26] in het ondersteunen op het regime ondersteunen, ondersteunen aan Belarussians.

[0:02:30] En natuurlijk zijn we als Belarussians heel erg bedankt over hoeveel we ondersteunen aan de Ukraine.

[0:02:36] Omdat de free Ukraine, de victorie van de Ukraine,

[0:02:39] zal onze land naar vrijheid gaan.

[0:02:44] Omdat de fates van Belarussien en de Ukraine zijn erg inter-connected.

[0:02:49] I'm glad that Belarus is the topic that unites people, unites parties, unites nations.

[0:02:58] In the European Union, at least, there is full consensus about Belarus policy.

[0:03:05] Today, I had my first meeting with your new prime minister,

[0:03:10] and I was fascinated how much he's aware about the situation in Belarus

[0:03:15] en begrijpt de internekening tussen de Ukraine en onze land,

[0:03:20] en begrijpt de strategische importance van Belarus in de kwestie van security.

[0:03:29] Dat er geen stabiliteit, geen stabiliteit in de region.

[0:03:40] En waar Lukashenko is er en serving voor Russland's interests,

[0:03:43] not to Belarus en one it will a constant threat not only to Ukraine but also to our western

[0:03:51] neighbors we already see this hybrid attacks from the territory of Belarus so that's why

[0:03:56] Belarus and Ukraine is just part of one like broader issue as you already said I just you

[0:04:08] Directly from Ukraine, I came here.

[0:04:11] I have to say that it was my first official visit to Ukraine.

[0:04:16] And we are very grateful to Ukrainian government that they...

[0:04:25] They decided themselves to...

[0:04:27] Okay, decided themselves in the policy to Belarus.

[0:04:30] They don't see Lukashenko as a counterpart, you know, because, you know, he's serving to Russia.

[0:04:37] en echt participeert in killing Ukrainians en ruine de cities.

[0:04:45] I met with President Zelensky, I met with Minister Sibiha.

[0:04:49] We agreed on institutionalizing our relationship between democratic forces and Ukraine.

[0:04:56] It was very inspiring for Belarusians,

[0:04:59] because we are amazed by the strength and bravery of Ukrainians.

[0:05:07] in spite by by them so I have to say that we eyes democratic movement if we are six years past

[0:05:18] since our uprising but we managed to keep our unity we build alternative institutions of power

[0:05:25] in exile we have office of Siklana Tikhanovskaya's office of president-elect we have united

[0:05:30] transitional cabinet as proto-government and we have coordination council as proto-parliament so

[0:05:37] We are building pro-democratic institutions just to learn how democracy works.

[0:05:41] We are preparing for the future.

[0:05:44] And also we keep strong coordination with our media projects, free media projects,

[0:05:51] with our human rights defenders who are working hard on advocating release of political prisoners,

[0:05:57] but also with our civil society who are working on many directions,

[0:06:01] Helping people, helping to preserve our culture

[0:06:05] To counter pro-Russian narratives in Belarus

[0:06:09] Preserving our national identity

[0:06:11] So we really like working together

[0:06:15] And it's really appreciated by our international partners as well

[0:06:23] So as for the situation inside the country

[0:06:27] Of course it's still humanitarian disaster

[0:06:29] Political prisoners, new political prisoners appear every day

[0:06:34] Detentions continue, repressions continue

[0:06:36] And also even those people who fled Belarus because of repressions

[0:06:41] And being living in safe countries

[0:06:43] We are experiencing transnational repressions

[0:06:48] For example, we are deprived of the rights to renew our documents

[0:06:52] Our relatives who are still in Belarus are terrorized by the regime

[0:06:57] for our actions, our property

[0:06:59] is confiscated, but nevertheless

[0:07:01] people continue to work

[0:07:03] and to be active

[0:07:06] regardless

[0:07:07] of these

[0:07:09] threats.

[0:07:12] So

[0:07:13] politically, of course, the regime of

[0:07:15] Lukashenko is continuing to serve

[0:07:17] to Russia. The regime doesn't care

[0:07:19] about national interests,

[0:07:21] doesn't care about our national

[0:07:23] identity. Lukashenko is ready to

[0:07:25] sacrifice our independence

[0:07:28] onze vijfers, onze lucht, alles, om te houden in power.

[0:07:33] Het is een illusion.

[0:07:36] We sometimes hear van vijfers politiciens dat we moeten doen om het plannen van Lukashen van Putins.

[0:07:41] Het is een illusion, het is een impossible.

[0:07:42] We hebben het gedaan om het 30 jaar te doen en we verkeerden.

[0:07:46] Dus nu we moeten we niet hebben om Lukashen van Putins.

[0:07:51] We moeten onze land van de buiten.

[0:07:54] This is our intention to return Belarus to the European family of countries.

[0:08:01] Maybe you know that recently several groups of political prisoners have been released thanks to American diplomacy.

[0:08:13] And of course we are grateful for these efforts of new Trump administration to deal with this humanitarian trek.

[0:08:19] But I have to underline that without strong position of Europe,

[0:08:25] without sanctions that have been imposed in recent years,

[0:08:29] Lukashenko wouldn't release no one.

[0:08:32] Because we see that sanctions do work.

[0:08:37] It's huge pressure on Lukashenko's pockets, on Lukashenko's money.

[0:08:41] And it makes him to start to make this consensus.

[0:08:49] Oké, concessions.

[0:08:51] Concessions, you know, just to somehow, you know, save some of his money.

[0:09:02] I think that Americans, you know, they can release all political prisoners using their instruments and tools.

[0:09:13] There is no necessity of European Union to follow the same track.

[0:09:17] European sanctions are much, much stronger than American one and lifting only of American sanctions will not bring much benefits to Lukashenko.

[0:09:31] And we actually developed a kind of formula, American sanctions to release political prisoners, European sanctions to release the country.

[0:09:42] I really do not see at the moment any appetite among our European allies

[0:09:50] to change the policy towards Lukashenko's regime

[0:09:53] We understand that lobbyists of regime is working very hard in Europe

[0:09:58] just to see it maybe be distrust or to split

[0:10:02] but I am grateful for strong and principled position of our allies in this question

[0:10:07] And Ukraine recently imposed new and new ways of sanctions against Lukashenka's regime

[0:10:13] and their policy fully coincide with the European approach.

[0:10:19] And while Lukashenka started to release people, we have even to intensify pressure in the regime

[0:10:26] because we need systematic and irreversible changes in Belarus,

[0:10:30] not just selling people and getting a new one just for further sales.

[0:10:38] So this is our situation at the moment.

[0:10:43] I have to say that we as a movement feel rather confident.

[0:10:46] We really managed to strengthen our agency, Democratic Forces.

[0:10:51] For six years passed, but we still preserved this high level of coordination with European countries.

[0:10:58] We actually formalized relationship with the USA, UK, Canada, European Union.

[0:11:04] So, you know, we are really proud of what we managed to achieve.

[0:11:10] But again, without support and assistance of our democratic partners, we wouldn't have achieved all this.

[0:11:17] And here I want to say words of gratitude to the Netherlands for technical support of our movement

[0:11:25] through different programs like Matra or Human Rights Fund.

[0:11:31] You are helping to fulfill our duties and actions.

[0:11:38] You are supporting our media

[0:11:40] and through International Endowment for Democracy

[0:11:43] supporting our movement.

[0:11:45] To be honest, after the USA cut all the aid

[0:11:50] to all the democratic initiatives you know they cut half of all the assistance we had

[0:12:02] it was really became difficult you know to survive we somehow managed and of course we encourage

[0:12:10] all the countries on national level on the level european union to invest more into belarusen

[0:12:18] en niet te kijken naar onze fighten als een politiek fight of een humanitarian fight.

[0:12:24] Het is al een kwestie van security.

[0:12:25] Dus als je investeert in de beel-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod-eurod.

[0:12:33] Het is ook hetzelfde als je precepts in de Ukraine.

[0:12:35] Dus hier moet je een probleemd.

[0:12:38] En vandaag heb ik de voorzitter aan de voorzitter om de voorzitter te proberen om de voorzitter te proberen.

[0:12:43] is support to our civil society organizations,

[0:12:50] our media, long-lasting programs,

[0:12:53] but also to political structures.

[0:12:55] Because we, as politicians,

[0:12:58] all the requests and demands go to me.

[0:13:04] I'm responsible for everything and I need to deliver.

[0:13:07] So if there is a possibility also to support political structures,

[0:13:12] I would be grateful.

[0:13:14] And also one more question we discussed with your government

[0:13:19] and with the Minister for Trade and Development.

[0:13:24] It's that we, together with Norway,

[0:13:29] we launched International Humanitarian Fund for Repressed.

[0:13:33] When people are released or people are still in prisons,

[0:13:37] We must support them technically, financially.

[0:13:44] When people are released, they are homeless.

[0:13:47] We provide them with rehabilitation, physical and psychological, with some accommodation, with dentists.

[0:13:54] People are really in awful condition.

[0:13:57] And only thanks to this fund, we manage to keep this support on a normal level.

[0:14:05] En zo is dit American humanitarian trek is continuing en we are waiting for more political prisons to be released.

[0:14:13] This fund needs to be ready, you know, to support people.

[0:14:17] Already 12 countries contributed.

[0:14:21] And this, you know, money is really like a huge range of contribution.

[0:14:27] For example, Norway donated about 1 million, Estonia about 20,000.

[0:14:32] But even symbolically, I think that the Netherlands have to be in this fund

[0:14:39] because I want to brag about the Dutch support to our movement.

[0:14:45] So if you can send signal to your government that you agree with this contribution,

[0:14:55] we would be grateful because people waiting for assistance from us.

[0:15:01] Ja, maybe

[0:15:05] if shortly I will stop here

[0:15:06] if there are, you know, questions because I can forget

[0:15:08] something, I will be

[0:15:10] glad to answer the issue

[0:15:12] one more, I'm in hug

[0:15:14] look, I'm in the Netherlands

[0:15:16] accountability, we are really

[0:15:18] working hard to bring Lukashenko

[0:15:20] to account for all his crimes

[0:15:22] we are working here

[0:15:25] together with Ukrainians

[0:15:26] and after my visit I think that we will

[0:15:28] intensify this cooperation

[0:15:30] we need to bring Lukashenko to account

[0:15:33] for crimes against humanity

[0:15:35] for war crimes

[0:15:38] but also for abduction

[0:15:39] of Ukrainian children

[0:15:40] from occupied territories

[0:15:41] to Belarus

[0:15:43] and already Lithuania

[0:15:46] sent referral

[0:15:46] to International Criminal Court

[0:15:48] and the investigation has started

[0:15:50] it's really achievement

[0:15:51] and here with me

[0:15:53] a person

[0:15:54] who is

[0:15:56] from one of our organizations

[0:15:59] who are dealing with the accountability processes

[0:16:01] if you can shortly tell on which

[0:16:03] stage we are.

[0:16:05] Thank you, Sadam.

[0:16:08] I will start

[0:16:09] maybe with the ICC and also

[0:16:11] I would like to use this opportunity

[0:16:13] taking into account that we are in the Netherlands

[0:16:15] to tell some words on

[0:16:17] another initiative that in New Zealand

[0:16:19] take part in which are really relevant

[0:16:21] for Belarusian accountability tracks.

[0:16:23] So first one is on

[0:16:25] ICC investigation. What we

[0:16:27] need to know really in the

[0:16:31] is dat deze investigatie is limited only

[0:16:34] to victims from Belarus who have been displaced

[0:16:36] to Lithuania, and only to Lithuania.

[0:16:39] But the whole context is much more wider.

[0:16:42] It's covering almost all countries

[0:16:45] of the European Union when the people

[0:16:47] from Belarus were forced to flee.

[0:16:50] In Lithuania we have something around 70,000,

[0:16:53] in Poland something about 250,

[0:16:56] 50 en de rest 10,000 in Germanië.

[0:17:01] Limiting de investigation only to Lithuania

[0:17:03] means that we have a fragmentation of the whole context

[0:17:06] and only some of these victims has access to justice.

[0:17:10] It means that at some point

[0:17:14] there is kind of discrimination of victims

[0:17:17] who are in other countries.

[0:17:19] To resolve this situation, we need

[0:17:22] to have another referral

[0:17:25] from one or several countries

[0:17:27] for example like it was done on Ukraine

[0:17:29] in 2022 where we will

[0:17:31] be able to expand the jurisdictional

[0:17:33] parameters on

[0:17:35] this investigation. So if several

[0:17:37] countries will provide additional information

[0:17:39] on victims placed in other countries

[0:17:41] they will provide also additional information

[0:17:43] on some

[0:17:45] specific elements of other crimes like

[0:17:46] persecution then the office of the

[0:17:49] prosecutor will be able to expand

[0:17:51] the parameters of the investigation

[0:17:53] en dat is wat we werken op nu,

[0:17:57] preparing deze informatie voor een potentieel group van staten

[0:18:01] die kunnen maken deze joint referral.

[0:18:05] We planen om een event in The Hague in September-October

[0:18:09] waar we willen zien potentieel staten

[0:18:14] die kunnen maken deze referral.

[0:18:17] Dit is de eerste track, en de tweede,

[0:18:19] Dat is heel belangrijk voor ons.

[0:18:21] We willen we learn from the experience of Nederland in raising a case against Syria

[0:18:25] on the basement of obligation of convention against torture.

[0:18:31] So, Canada and Nederland together made a submission

[0:18:35] to the International Court of Justice against Syria

[0:18:39] for violation of certain rules of this convention.

[0:18:44] And this is the case of Belarus as well.

[0:18:45] There are several conclusions of several UN-mechanism institutions which are clearly made that Belarus systematically has certain practices of torture and ill-treatment which are directly violated the Convention Against Torture.

[0:19:05] This is our idea to have the same case against Belarus.

[0:19:10] It will allow immediately to influence in the situation with the political prisoners in Belarus.

[0:19:16] Because the court, the International Court of Justice,

[0:19:19] is able to make certain immediate decision obliged to Belarus

[0:19:25] in order to change the situation with certain prisoners in Belarus.

[0:19:32] en dat is wat we

[0:19:34] are working on en want

[0:19:36] to have some expertise

[0:19:38] from Nederland as well

[0:19:40] on this issue.

[0:19:42] Thank you very much, it was very interesting

[0:19:45] to hear. I would like to

[0:19:47] give the floor, I think I will start with

[0:19:49] Mrs. Kreuger because I know she has to

[0:19:51] leave at...

[0:19:55] Let me also introduce

[0:19:57] to you Mr. Hogeveen who came

[0:19:59] a little bit later.

[0:20:01] let me let's first do one question each and we'll take two questions and then do the answers so that

[0:20:10] mrs krug can still hear the answer and then we'll do the other two including myself hanneke mrs van

[0:20:17] de werf thank you um thank you for your uh interesting introduction um um first actually

[0:20:26] I wanted to ask, how is your husband doing?

[0:20:29] He was, of course, released last year, and I hope he's doing well.

[0:20:34] But, of course, I wanted to ask about the situation of the other political prisoners as well.

[0:20:41] Many of them are still in prison.

[0:20:44] Some people have fled the country in time.

[0:20:48] And, of course, you said something about the American sanctions to release prisoners

[0:20:52] and European sanctions to release the country.

[0:20:55] I thought it was interesting.

[0:20:57] maybe you can elaborate

[0:20:59] some more on that

[0:21:01] except of the personal

[0:21:02] experience of the people

[0:21:04] you can answer please

[0:21:12] thank you so much and thank you also

[0:21:15] for visiting our parliament again

[0:21:17] this is for me my first time

[0:21:19] to join this conversation

[0:21:20] and yeah, I'm really happy that we have

[0:21:23] this chance for this

[0:21:25] conversation

[0:21:26] my question was actually whether you could

[0:21:28] shed a bit of perspective on

[0:21:30] hoe de current geopolitical

[0:21:33] situation and the fact that

[0:21:34] we're seeing a lot of turmoil

[0:21:36] in a lot of different places in the world

[0:21:38] where of course there's also maybe

[0:21:40] interest of a lot of people going

[0:21:42] into certain areas where

[0:21:45] well potentially

[0:21:46] there's less focus

[0:21:48] or less international attention for

[0:21:50] the struggle you're facing

[0:21:54] how do you

[0:21:55] see this current geopolitical

[0:21:56] context and what are the consequences

[0:21:59] and what should we really be aware of as parliamentarians?

[0:22:05] Mrs. Stiganovska, please, if you could answer the questions.

[0:22:09] So first of all, thank you for mentioning my husband.

[0:22:13] It was really like relief, my personal relief at that moment.

[0:22:17] But of course, understanding and knowing and living through this pain every day,

[0:22:24] you continue to fight for everyone because there are still thousands of splitted families,

[0:22:29] Mothers and fathers in prison

[0:22:34] Parentless children

[0:22:35] So we have to fight until everybody is free

[0:22:38] We are glad that about 500 people have already been released

[0:22:43] During the last year

[0:22:46] But again, maybe we have to name the things what they are

[0:22:50] It's not real releases

[0:22:52] Partially these people were forcefully deported out of the country

[0:22:56] Partially they were allowed to stay

[0:23:00] But the conditions for these people

[0:23:02] Who allowed to stay in the country are unbearable

[0:23:04] They cannot open bank accounts

[0:23:06] They cannot find work

[0:23:07] They cannot even have a SIM card for their mobile

[0:23:11] It looks like the regime tries to expel them out of the country

[0:23:16] To make conditions for them to leave the country

[0:23:19] And while communicating with our American partners

[0:23:22] Who are holding this track

[0:23:23] We insist that

[0:23:24] Of course, first of all, people have to have a choice either to leave Belarus or to stay.

[0:23:28] But second, it should be full amnesty.

[0:23:31] It shouldn't be like, you know, you release the person

[0:23:34] and don't allow this person to live normal life, you know, in Belarus.

[0:23:40] It's not releasing.

[0:23:44] And, of course, we are glad that the Nobel Peace Prize winner,

[0:23:48] Oles Belyatsky, also was released.

[0:23:50] en hij nu kan intensifie onze voix in de internationale arena.

[0:23:55] Hij is echt hard werken om te leggen.

[0:23:57] Hij is eigenlijk een paar week's ago in Nederland ook.

[0:24:00] Ja, het is het meestal dat hij visited Nederland een paar week's ago.

[0:24:05] En hij heeft ook een heel sterk position dat we continue to put pressure op Lukashenko.

[0:24:10] Niet alleen om hem te leggen om mensen te leggen en de nieuwe mensen in de prison.

[0:24:21] De politiek is in de politiek in de politiek is in de politiek.

[0:24:25] De politiek is nu om te zijn.

[0:24:31] Inhumane.

[0:24:32] Inhumane.

[0:24:33] Ja, ze zijn er ontzettend met een voetal,

[0:24:36] een voetal, een hygienische problemen.

[0:24:39] Ze zijn niet zo geïnteroordelijk en psychologisch en psychisch.

[0:24:42] Ze zijn niet zo geïnteroordelijk.

[0:24:43] We zijn hard werken om te kijken naar deze problemen.

[0:24:53] Als voor het interesse in Belarus, we understand times are turbulent, crisis in the world,

[0:25:17] Maar we're encouraging, first of all, Europeans,

[0:25:21] to pay attention to,

[0:25:23] dat het Belarusian question is part of a security problem.

[0:25:28] It's not humanitarian crisis or political crisis.

[0:25:31] It's security one.

[0:25:33] Lukashenko is there.

[0:25:34] Threats to Ukraine remains.

[0:25:36] Threats to our European neighbors remains.

[0:25:39] And this, for example, meteor balloons over Lithuania,

[0:25:43] it's not the problem of Lithuania.

[0:25:44] And they're disrupting their airports.

[0:25:46] Het is niet de problemen, het is de problemen van de Europese Union.

[0:25:49] Migranten aan de borders is de problemen van de Europese Union.

[0:25:53] We moeten die countries die zijn op de frontlijn van deze fighten met de diktatoren.

[0:26:02] Dus we proberen de strategische importance van Belarus.

[0:26:07] And for example, if we talk about aid to democratic societies, to democratic changes in the world, for example, Sweden, they also cut a lot of assistance to the development of democracy, but they left this assistance to Moldova, Belarus, Ukraine as part of the strategic security interest.

[0:26:33] We also encourage you to look at Belarus also from this perspective.

[0:26:39] Of course, the interest of Ukraine in Belarus increased attention to my country as well.

[0:26:47] Because Ukraine is now a new regional leader.

[0:26:52] They dared to challenge Russia with these attacks.

[0:26:58] En, of course, they understand that victory of Ukraine

[0:27:03] will give opportunity to Belarusians as well.

[0:27:09] And, Denise, maybe you will add and I will concentrate.

[0:27:12] Yeah, just to add up as well, some things as well about specifically,

[0:27:16] you know, on the parliament side as well,

[0:27:18] just as some of the updates since last time we met.

[0:27:22] And, you know, some also, if you allow some of the proposals as well

[0:27:25] that we have for the parliaments.

[0:27:27] We used to, as you rightly say, it's the fifth visit, and we used to work with different governments in different parliaments here.

[0:27:33] And we know that there is no practice in your parliament to have a formal group of friendship with other parliaments or democratic forces.

[0:27:43] But we wanted to kindly ask you to consider having one or two or three persons who might be these informal chairs of such a group.

[0:27:52] en we used to have such experience on the first after 2020 it was kitty peter who was the chair

[0:27:58] of the group then on the previous one it was isa kahraman from the new social contract as well

[0:28:04] so maybe you could consider now as well forming this group of it can be one person several

[0:28:11] persons why it's important for us we have such groups in 23 parliaments now and for us this

[0:28:18] Allianz van deze Gruppen voor DEMOCRATIC BELRUZ, formal of informal, is van een crucial

[0:28:23] importance to update u on a more constant basis, not just ad hoc,

[0:28:29] when Madam President comes. And twice per year we gather all of these

[0:28:34] parliamentarians, all of the chairs of the group, and co-chairs of the group.

[0:28:39] First time it took place in Berlin, then in Rome, in Paris, and actually next week

[0:28:44] There is a fourth such meeting in London, in the United Kingdom.

[0:28:48] And unfortunately, we don't have yet the person from the Dutch parliament,

[0:28:53] which we understand because you just formed a coalition.

[0:28:57] But still, if someone could come next week, we would be more, of course,

[0:29:01] than happy to extend the invitation and help with logistics and everything to come there.

[0:29:06] But this is crucially important that we would have one of the persons

[0:29:09] or several persons from your parliament to work on.

[0:29:15] We try to formalise, as president mentioned, formalise relations with governments, with United Kingdom, with U.S., European Union, but also with parliamentary organisations.

[0:29:26] And one of the very significant achievements, I would say, is the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, where we managed to form a delegation of democratic Belarus.

[0:29:37] Belarus is not part of the Council of Europe because of the death penalty and some other things,

[0:29:43] but we managed to formalise relations with them and have our delegation present at the meeting

[0:29:48] and present at the, thank you, present at the commission hearing and there is a group of people

[0:29:54] who are actually coming to a recession. And we are trying to look into this non-conventional

[0:29:59] solutions with other parliamentary assemblies and the one specifically with OSC.

[0:30:04] En nu in Haag, er zal de volgende meeting zijn.

[0:30:08] En we werken met Zweden en andere landen om onze shadowdelegation te creëren.

[0:30:13] Want OSCE is een van de twee organisaties waar de Belarusian regime is nog steeds present.

[0:30:18] En heel snel hier in Haag, je zal de so-calleden parlementariërs komen uit Minsk,

[0:30:24] die de only task, als parlementariër, is to raise de hand,

[0:30:29] als een diktator zegt om de hand te vragen, om iets te vragen.

[0:30:32] Of course, they're not real.

[0:30:33] There is no parliamentarism and there is no real parties or anything in Belarus.

[0:30:37] So this is all rubber stamp parliamentarians.

[0:30:41] But what we try to do is to have our delegation there.

[0:30:44] And the way what we are asking to help is we try to create this informal friendship group

[0:30:49] in OEC, because the same one we have in OEC governmental level, so the embassies.

[0:30:55] So what we ask here as well, if any of you or your colleagues are members of the OEC

[0:31:03] is to appoint one of the persons who would come for this organisational meeting

[0:31:08] of the side event that we are doing.

[0:31:11] So, two concrete proposals.

[0:31:13] One is to think of this friendship group on the longer basis, bilaterally,

[0:31:18] and then the second for the OECPA.

[0:31:22] That would help us a lot as well to keep this engagement going.

[0:31:26] We also have informal channels of communication

[0:31:28] like with all the prolementarians from all over the countries.

[0:31:30] We hebben een WhatsApp-groep met 70 mensen van verschillende partijen en verschillende parliaments.

[0:31:38] En we houden daar een update.

[0:31:40] Dus als je het kunt consideren, dat is voor ons praktisch.

[0:31:44] Misschien een klein ding, maar heel praktisch en heel concreet.

[0:31:46] Dus we kunnen altijd zeggen dat Nederland is op-to-date, Nederland is met ons,

[0:31:50] en het Nederlandse parliaments is heel goed op dit.

[0:31:54] Let me respond to dat, en dan ik ga de vraag naar Mr. Hoogveen voor de vraag.

[0:31:59] Two things very interesting to hear, what we will do, the person next to me said, for the informal group, we can ask our committee next week whether they agree with that or not, and we will discuss it and come back to you.

[0:32:21] The other thing, the OSCE Parliamentarian Assembly

[0:32:27] and the meeting in July that we're having.

[0:32:29] I'm a member of the Parliamentarian Assembly.

[0:32:33] I think we have a delegation meeting somewhere in the coming week,

[0:32:37] maybe the week after,

[0:32:38] and we will make sure it's on the agenda as well.

[0:32:41] So for both your requests, we can see what we can do.

[0:32:46] And I think hearing what happens in your countries

[0:32:50] en de good relationship

[0:32:52] dat we have with you

[0:32:54] which for me at least

[0:32:56] means that I would look at it

[0:32:57] in a very positive manner

[0:32:59] so we will bring that forward

[0:33:01] during the next meeting

[0:33:02] that we have with the whole commission

[0:33:04] next week on Thursday

[0:33:06] I just want to underline

[0:33:09] thank you for your initiative

[0:33:12] to discuss this

[0:33:15] parliamentary group

[0:33:16] for us it's also important

[0:33:18] that this group is

[0:33:20] is multi-party, multi-partisans,

[0:33:23] just to show that Belarus is the topic that unites people.

[0:33:29] So I ask you to encourage people from different...

[0:33:33] We are here already with four parties.

[0:33:36] Mrs. Kreuger said that she had to leave a little bit earlier.

[0:33:38] Sorry for that.

[0:33:39] But we were here with four parties

[0:33:41] and we will always try to be as broad as possible

[0:33:46] represented in meetings that we're having

[0:33:48] And not only from one party, but definitely from multiple parties.

[0:33:52] Mr. Hoogveen, can I give you the floor for a question?

[0:33:55] Thank you, Chair. Yes, thank you so much.

[0:33:58] First of all, I apologize for being late.

[0:33:59] We have a tight schedule, but I'm glad I'm here.

[0:34:02] I was in the European Parliament when Belarusian Democratic Opposition won the Sakharov Prize.

[0:34:08] So it was good to see you in the hemicycle in Strasbourg.

[0:34:10] And now it's good to see you here again.

[0:34:13] My question is on basically a bit of a follow-up on what my colleague Kreuger asked.

[0:34:19] And that is that we see, especially from Washington, D.C., some appetite for a limited rapprochement towards the Lukashenko regime in exchange for political prisoners, obviously.

[0:34:34] maar ook een limitede economische opening,

[0:34:38] misschien zelfs een strategische bedrijfde thinking

[0:34:42] om er een opening naar Moscow zou zijn.

[0:34:45] Hoe zie je dit ontwikkeling en hoe zie je dit balance

[0:34:49] op de one hand seeking een limitede rapprochement

[0:34:52] tegen het Lukashenko-regime,

[0:34:54] maar op de andere hand ook de danger

[0:34:56] van de lukashenko-regime rehabilitering

[0:34:59] op de internationale stage?

[0:35:05] maybe i should also ask you a question uh i have a question i really like to ask and and then you

[0:35:11] can answer both questions again um i want to i'd like to know a little bit more how you look at

[0:35:18] the involvement of belarus in the war in ukraine you mentioned that you've been there recently

[0:35:23] and we hear stories from ukrainian prisoners of war that belarus is getting more and more involved

[0:35:33] ik was wondering

[0:35:34] of u expect any changes

[0:35:36] in the short term

[0:35:37] in terms of the activity

[0:35:39] that Belarus is

[0:35:43] executing

[0:35:44] in the war in Ukraine

[0:35:45] and what that would be

[0:35:49] thank you, I will start with

[0:35:51] your question

[0:35:53] first of all

[0:35:55] Lukashenko is already part of this war

[0:35:57] he is war criminal, he is co-aggressor

[0:35:59] in Belarus

[0:36:00] het regime is assisting russia while belarusian society belarusian people

[0:36:06] are on the side of ukraine and regime knows this and that's why

[0:36:10] regime pays so much attention in the 10 in detention people with pro ukrainian

[0:36:18] narratives if you're donating to ukrainian army if you've seen ukrainian

[0:36:23] songs if your relatives are active abroad with

[0:36:29] de pro-european position, you might be suppressed as well.

[0:36:33] So, Lukashenka knows that society is against any further involvement.

[0:36:39] Of course, what we see in Belarus now worries us a lot

[0:36:44] because this Russian, joint Russian drills,

[0:36:48] the tests of Oresnik missiles and nuclear weapon systems,

[0:36:56] het might be part of

[0:36:59] psychological operation

[0:37:01] part of blackmailing

[0:37:03] but also

[0:37:05] we have many informants

[0:37:07] from inside the country

[0:37:08] who give us very sensitive data

[0:37:10] and we see that the regime is building

[0:37:14] infrastructure

[0:37:14] on the territory of Belarus

[0:37:16] that is not supposed to be there

[0:37:18] if you are not preparing for escalation

[0:37:20] so different

[0:37:23] this

[0:37:25] Ik weet het niet, ik weet het niet, ik weet het transmitters,

[0:37:29] je weet het, sommige facilities voor weapon, zo on en zo fort.

[0:37:34] En, of course, ik ben echt verantwoordelijk het alarm van Ukrainiens,

[0:37:42] want, zoals ik zei, waar Lukashenko is er,

[0:37:45] onze territorie, onze infrastructuur kan worden gebruikt op any moment.

[0:37:49] Not only against Ukraine, but also against our European neighbors as well.

[0:37:54] Because this infrastructure is being built not only on the border with Ukraine,

[0:37:58] but also with the European borders.

[0:38:01] Of course, we are keeping an eye on what's happening in Belarus

[0:38:05] and delivering this data to Ukrainians and our European and American partners, of course.

[0:38:12] And our task now, and we discussed it very deeply with the Ukrainians

[0:38:19] That we really have to launch a huge campaign

[0:38:25] Explaining Belarusian people, but also the regime

[0:38:28] The consequences of deeper involvement

[0:38:30] Belarusian people don't want to participate

[0:38:32] But we know what methods regime can use to involve people

[0:38:37] You know, forceful mobilization or paying money or whatever

[0:38:42] En, of course, Ukrainians nu are rather firm in the position

[0:38:49] that if new attacks from Belarus will take place,

[0:38:52] there will be symmetrical response.

[0:38:58] So that's why together with the Ukrainians we now will work on this campaign

[0:39:03] and just to prevent our country to be more involved.

[0:39:11] En ik ben hier niet alleen van de vijf van de militaire involvangen, maar ik ben echt over de relatie tussen Beliërsens en Ukrainiens als nations.

[0:39:23] We hebben echt harde in 2020 om niet te worden, in de lijden van Ukrainiens, de vijf.

[0:39:30] We explained our situation. We see that many railway partisans disrupted railways to stop Russian going to Ukraine, Belarusian military volunteers fighting in international regiments in Ukraine, our civic volunteers helping a lot in fundraising money and helping Ukrainians.

[0:39:56] Dus we restore onze goede name.

[0:39:59] En we don't, I really don't want Belarus

[0:40:01] to become, you know, to go through

[0:40:05] these processes again.

[0:40:07] So that's why, you know, our European partners

[0:40:11] also have to be very clear about

[0:40:14] consequences for Lukashenko

[0:40:16] for any possible escalation.

[0:40:17] And this maybe you have heard that

[0:40:19] President Macron called Lukashenko recently.

[0:40:23] It wasn't about political recognition

[0:40:25] of whatever, it was a very warning

[0:40:28] phone call, just to remind

[0:40:33] Lukashenko about

[0:40:35] possible

[0:40:37] consequences

[0:40:38] and also

[0:40:41] remind about humanitarian disaster

[0:40:43] in Belarus. So that's why

[0:40:45] we take these

[0:40:47] threats very seriously.

[0:40:49] And as for Americans

[0:40:52] maybe I'll give the word

[0:40:53] to Denis, you know, he's working

[0:40:55] met Washington, you know, systematically,

[0:41:00] just to understand that we aligned with the policy of the USA.

[0:41:07] So basically, you know, the release of political prisoners in Belarus

[0:41:11] started not with Belarusians, but with American citizens.

[0:41:14] You know, President Trump, when he became president,

[0:41:17] there was basically a goal for him to get Americans out.

[0:41:21] And there were several American citizens in Belarusian prisons.

[0:41:24] en we were working actually with Biden administration together

[0:41:28] how to get political prisoners out.

[0:41:31] And we were discussing several options,

[0:41:33] but Lukashenko was not going into the contact.

[0:41:35] At first he did, but then when 7th of November happened,

[0:41:39] he immediately cut all the ties with the previous administration

[0:41:43] and waited for Trump to be in place.

[0:41:46] And then when he did, they sent a special,

[0:41:49] is now a special envoy, personal lawyer of President Trump, John Cole, to go to Minsk.

[0:41:56] He is not a geopolitical person, he is a lawyer.

[0:42:00] But he was asked by Trump to go, well by administration actually to go.

[0:42:04] And when he went there, Lukashenko gave for no price Americans out.

[0:42:10] So he wants it, of course, Lukashenko is afraid of Trump's unpredictability.

[0:42:14] En dan met deze release van Amerikan citizens, dan zijn er nog 6 andere waves van de releases gebeurd.

[0:42:20] En voor de eerste drie waves van de releases, Lukaschenko was niet geïnteresseerd in return.

[0:42:25] Dus voor de release van de meneer president's husband, de prijs was om General Kellogg naar Minsk en te maken een public picture van Lukaschenko.

[0:42:36] Want hij, van zijn perspektief, begrijpte mensen gewoon van twee redenen.

[0:42:42] Eerst, hij wil weer de reconditionen.

[0:42:45] Hij was 5 jaar incommunicado.

[0:42:47] No one was talking to him apart from one phone call from Macron

[0:42:51] and one phone call from Merkel

[0:42:52] because of the migration crisis and participation in the war.

[0:42:56] And second reason is because of the economic decline.

[0:43:00] So, sanctions do work.

[0:43:02] And that's why Lukashenko started to work with Americans

[0:43:06] with the idea to break the unity of Europe.

[0:43:09] Want de sanctions die USA hebben tegen het regime in Belarus zijn niet praktisch dat effectief.

[0:43:17] Dat is interessant, want het is anders met Russland.

[0:43:21] Maar without de Europese sanctions, ze nemen veel geld.

[0:43:26] Ja, het maakt het leven van Lukaschenko's moeilijker,

[0:43:30] toen hij verhaal van Potash,

[0:43:34] en de banken, en Belavia, de AR-carrier.

[0:43:39] Maar het maakt het leven een beetje beter om in dollars te maken,

[0:43:43] om meer partners te maken,

[0:43:44] en een grote volummen in Brazil, in China, in India,

[0:43:49] waar hij al heeft gegeven.

[0:43:51] Maar het maakt niet veel praktische geld in Europa.

[0:43:56] Dus hier zijn idee is met amerikans om de unity in Europa te brengen.

[0:44:02] Maar amerikans zijn niet naïve.

[0:44:04] Ze begrijpen dat Lukashenko niet zal zichzelf van putin zijn.

[0:44:10] On de andere kant, ze zien ook, van hun perspektief, een potentieel voor politieke vijf.

[0:44:15] Voor de laatste politieke vijf, voor de laatste politieke vijf,

[0:44:17] voor de laatste Nobel Prize winnen die de president mentioned, Alex Beliatsky.

[0:44:20] Dus als hij zou willen alle politische prisoners zijn, hij wil meer recognition en zijn nominat voor de Nobel Prize, voor peace, et cetera.

[0:44:29] Er is, als je zei, er is een business interesse hier, met Potash en met Potash,

[0:44:38] in theory, om meer opnieuw te hebben dan Canada.

[0:44:41] Want Canada en Russia zijn de twee grootste landen voor Potash.

[0:44:46] Belarus is number 3, but it's not of a big, big, such a big deal with this, you know, so they're not going to, what they told us, they're not going to put in institutional pressure towards EU.

[0:44:57] What they're doing now is the form of exploring the options, like asking potentially would Lithuania or Poland to Ukraine allow the transit of Porsche or not.

[0:45:06] And of course, I mean, we asked President Zelensky about it. He said, if we are not considering this, it's not going to happen.

[0:45:12] Polens remain strong, maar Lithuania is ook een strong positie van Lithuania.

[0:45:17] Maar zin deze discussie appeared, sommige mensen denken dat we misschien ook zouden gaan.

[0:45:23] Misschien zouden we een kansen geven.

[0:45:26] In onze perspectief, dit zou een terrible mistake zijn.

[0:45:29] Want dit is precies wat Lukashenko was doen in de laatst 32 jaar.

[0:45:33] Er is eigenlijk een speciale table dat ziet hoe Lukashenko was doen all over de jaar.

[0:45:42] Dus hij escalert, dan hij starten met de charm offensive nummer 1,

[0:45:46] dan hij escalert weer, en dan de charm offensive nummer 2,

[0:45:50] en dan weer terug.

[0:45:52] We niet zien een systematische change in dit.

[0:45:55] Hier, wat we ask Nederland, Europarlamenten en alle vrienden in Europa

[0:46:00] is om de positie van de Ukraine te lukken.

[0:46:02] Any help to Lukashenko nu,

[0:46:05] with sanctions, with engagement, with anything.

[0:46:09] It will go not just against the will of Belarusian people,

[0:46:12] it will not only hurt us, but also Ukrainians.

[0:46:16] So here, if you want to support Ukraine, we should be tough on Lukashenko

[0:46:20] and we should keep continuing to work with Belarusian people,

[0:46:23] same as President Zelensky does now.

[0:46:25] On the good side, what we appreciate from Americans is that they are transparent with us,

[0:46:30] not like it happens in many corners of Europe, to be honest,

[0:46:33] Maar ze zijn open om wat ze doen, ze consulten.

[0:46:37] En wat we heel erg appreken hebben, omdat het voor de 500 politische prisen,

[0:46:44] including de Nobel Prize winnen en de grote figuur, dit is belangrijk.

[0:46:47] En de andere kant, we ook begrijpen dat,

[0:46:50] als het een revolving door en nieuwe mensen worden arrested,

[0:46:53] at een moment, deze karats, ze kunnen in de boeken van de U.S.

[0:46:59] So we also tell them that the U.S. has not only carrots, but sticks.

[0:47:04] And one day, you know, Trump can call, as he's calling now, Lukashenko a highly respected president.

[0:47:10] Even though when they do so, they keep coming to us and say, like, of course you understand, guys, we don't really think this way.

[0:47:16] But we are trying to use it as a carrot.

[0:47:19] But the other day, they can be, he can be Maduro.

[0:47:22] So that's why we also say that the U.S. can also think from the peace through strengths.

[0:47:28] En ook democratie is through strength, in sommige manieren.

[0:47:32] Dus hier, onze proberen aan de USA is om beide manieren en niet te behoord.

[0:47:38] En nu we zien dat ze niet naïve zijn.

[0:47:41] En de mensen die werken op dit, dat ze dit.

[0:47:43] Dat ze ons vertellen, dat we niet helemaal normalise de relatie met Lukashenko,

[0:47:48] als hij niet normalise de situatie in de land,

[0:47:51] maar ook in de gebouwen, die ook de NATO memberen zijn.

[0:47:57] En de groep van mensen die hier werken, ze zijn heel goed, maar voor president Trump,

[0:48:02] als je kijkt naar alle de publiek communicaties over Belarus, er waren er vier,

[0:48:06] er waren drie Tweets via Social, en één van de Oval Office van de Oval.

[0:48:12] All of ze enden met de mensagen 1,300, nu al minder, maar alle politische prisoners,

[0:48:19] of als president Trump zei, politische hostijen, die is even worse voor de regime,

[0:48:24] should be released so in the Trump's hat it's about the you know this political prisoners and

[0:48:30] about this humanitarian track as such but last but not least with this administration again we

[0:48:39] tomorrow it may change so far situations like this and we are working with this for the last

[0:48:43] 14 months and actually in the last 14 months on Belarus they were consistent and everything they

[0:48:51] het was in a way consulted.

[0:48:53] Maar je weet niet wat er morgen gebeurt.

[0:48:59] Thanks a lot.

[0:49:00] Ik denk dat we nog een beetje meer tijd

[0:49:04] om een paar shorte vragen te vragen.

[0:49:07] En dan in de laatste vijf minuten

[0:49:09] ik zou willen geven uw closing statement.

[0:49:13] Er zijn er nog andere kleine vragen vragen?

[0:49:47] Meneer Hogeveen, nog een kleine vraag.

[0:49:50] Well, thank you for the answer, and a very clear answer on how the U.S. is now operating.

[0:49:57] That was very insightful.

[0:50:00] One short question, indeed.

[0:50:02] You mentioned before the parliamentarians from Belarus.

[0:50:06] They are mostly the rubber stamp parliamentarians.

[0:50:10] Do you see, since the mass protests, still any cracks or any gradual change within Belarus

[0:50:20] that indicates some form of opposition change towards the regime?

[0:50:28] And could I ask my final question as well?

[0:50:31] And then you can speak and take all the time that you need.

[0:50:35] My question would be on boycotts and sanctions.

[0:50:38] What we see now is that some sports unions are giving Russian and Belarusian athletes

[0:50:48] and also cultural institutions opening up again for Russian and Belarusian athletes.

[0:50:56] I was wondering what that happened, what that means for your work.

[0:51:01] And also, does this work?

[0:51:06] And also, how it is felt in Russia and Belarus

[0:51:11] that this is happening, that it's opening up again?

[0:51:14] Or do you think that is a sanction that is felt as well

[0:51:18] and could be re-established?

[0:51:23] Look, first of all, I think it's a wrong position, you know,

[0:51:28] to return to, like, sport as usual with the dictators

[0:51:33] Want het is een signal dat repressions, war, kan worden normaliseerd.

[0:51:42] En dit narratief dat sport is uit de politiek, dat niet meer werkt.

[0:51:49] Ik weet niet wat de russische oppositie was om dit te doen.

[0:51:55] We zijn niet heel erg collaboratie, want we hebben een verschillende context.

[0:52:00] Maar ik begrijp dat we als Bosnian Democritic Forces een beetje verhaal in deze richting,

[0:52:09] omdat het een lack van capaciteit, een lack van de mogelijkheid om te werken in verschillende directions.

[0:52:15] We somehow losten deze track, en we niet hard werken met de sport, met de sport committees.

[0:52:24] Maar ik begrijp dat diktatoren gebruiken van de sport-platformen om te intensiferen de narraties,

[0:52:32] om te misuseen de platformen, om te mistrusten, enzovoort.

[0:52:41] Dus van mijn punt, het is een mistake.

[0:52:43] En als er een mogelijkheid om deze topik te hebben, misschien hebben we deze instrument,

[0:52:50] we zouden zijn grateful voor dit.

[0:52:53] I think it shouldn't have happened, especially knowing that all the sport organizations in Belarus, they are state-one.

[0:53:00] And they are, like, they are managed by Lukashenko's cronies.

[0:53:09] So, son, actually, you know, members of the family.

[0:53:13] So, of course, it's, like, painful development of the situation.

[0:53:18] You want to read?

[0:53:19] Ja, ik kan het als wel. En sommige, voor example, in de futbol klas,

[0:53:22] ze waren een part van de abduking van de ukrainische kinderen,

[0:53:28] voor de indokrinationen enzovoort.

[0:53:30] So, veel sporten zijn niet, zoals ze zeggen, sport is uit de politiek.

[0:53:36] Maar in Belarus, niet alleen in Belarus, alles is politiek.

[0:53:40] En ze eigenlijk participeren in veel van deze dingen.

[0:53:44] En potentiaal, ze kunnen ook, als ze gaan en travel,

[0:53:47] Ze kunnen komen niet alleen met de sportmen, maar ook met de mensen met special forest organisaties.

[0:53:54] Dus we denken dat het niet de tijd is.

[0:53:56] En als dat gebeurt, even met de olympische committee decision,

[0:54:04] Lukashenko, als dat gebeurt, we moeten ook iets in return krijgen.

[0:54:10] Every step like dat moet hebben een prijs.

[0:54:12] En iets van het OECP, als ik het president van het OECP, was de secretaris-general.

[0:54:22] We were vragen, als de so-calleden parlementariens naar Nederland komen,

[0:54:28] de problem is dat ze niet zijn sanctioned.

[0:54:31] De parlement, die alle besloten tegen Ukraine, voor de war, is niet sanctioned.

[0:54:39] en ze hebben deze capaciteit om te gaan naar Nederland te gaan.

[0:54:43] We hebben ze in Vierna, bijvoorbeeld,

[0:54:46] omdat Vierna's sessioen zijn,

[0:54:48] als Vierna is de capital van de internationale organisatie,

[0:54:53] maar, bijvoorbeeld, als de sessioen was in Canada,

[0:54:56] ze waren banned om te gaan naar Canada.

[0:54:58] Dus, waarom ze naar Nederland komen?

[0:55:00] En als ze naar Nederland komen,

[0:55:02] waarom we ze niet om te zetten te zetten,

[0:55:04] te zetten te zetten,

[0:55:05] of politische prisoners of, for example, cancel this law

[0:55:10] that Lukashenko gave for consulates and embassies

[0:55:14] that deprives all the Belarusians all over the world

[0:55:16] to renew the documents and so on.

[0:55:19] We should not give them anything for free.

[0:55:22] First, they should not be felt welcomed,

[0:55:24] because, again, they're coming from this point.

[0:55:25] But even if they do, we should get the price for this.

[0:55:27] And I think in the case now, from what I understood,

[0:55:30] they will just come.

[0:55:30] If I may add to Denise that we just two weeks ago submitted information that was requested by your colleague from the Parliamentary Assembly of the OCE,

[0:55:46] which has a monitoring mission on the indoctrination of Ukrainian miners displaced from Ukraine to Belarus

[0:55:54] and also their displacement from Ukraine to Russian Federation.

[0:55:58] And she reached out to us with the opportunity to have the information we submitted.

[0:56:03] One of the core sites of this information contains the consistent part on the involvement of sports clubs from Belarus.

[0:56:12] Firstly, it's Schachter-Soligorsk.

[0:56:15] And also new information contains some facts, evidence on the involvement of such clubs from the Vitebsk region, which is called Maxline.

[0:56:24] So, it shows directly how die sport structures are involved

[0:56:29] in the whole system of committing crimes in Belarus.

[0:56:33] And actually, if we look in the chain of commands

[0:56:36] who made the decision on the displacement of Ukrainian marines to Belarus,

[0:56:41] we see that the persons who are leading the National Olympic Committee

[0:56:45] are at the first place.

[0:56:48] So, they directly engaged in the processes of displacement,

[0:56:51] Die vraag aksi is een probleem van de spellen en ook probleem van het probleem van de grondenijke minoren

[0:56:56] vibe op die officie van Dat het serieus gemulen over van dat.

[0:57:04] De huidige calmestaan tumult of investeringen worden werd in de spiritus geentr界 kwijt fishes.

[0:57:16] De probleem van de Europese poort having boven woms.

[0:57:23] In de land.

[0:57:26] We, the people themselves,

[0:57:28] are in opposition to the Belarusian regime.

[0:57:30] For 30 years the regime of Lukashenko built the system

[0:57:33] that is serving to himself.

[0:57:35] These special military apparatus,

[0:57:39] this pocket parliament and so on and so forth.

[0:57:41] So it's impossible to launch something

[0:57:45] like opposition to Lukashenko and Belarus.

[0:57:47] Level of repressions is awful.

[0:57:49] So our movement went underground.

[0:57:52] Some people are ready to sacrifice possible laws of freedom,

[0:57:59] just provide us information, just to be our local intelligence in Belarus.

[0:58:04] And some people, maybe a majority of them,

[0:58:07] just they don't want this regime to be there,

[0:58:10] but they cannot speak freely because they're afraid.

[0:58:13] And it's normal, everyday repressions, of course, doing the work.

[0:58:18] But what is important is that what we have built,

[0:58:21] Yes, in exile, but we're really building a prototype of democratic society.

[0:58:26] And just in the case of opportunity window, we will be able very fast to start processes in Belarus.

[0:58:35] We all remember that we want changes in our country through free and free elections.

[0:58:40] This is what we want.

[0:58:42] We don't want any war, escalation or whatever.

[0:58:44] And we already now, as structures, we're proposing the regime negotiation process.

[0:58:50] Het is niet een negaties tussen het regime en Europa, het regime en de USA, maar de mensen en het regime, met de mediation van onze demokratische partners.

[0:59:03] Dit is wat we willen.

[0:59:04] Don't overlook society, don't talk to Lukashenko.

[0:59:08] Dit is de condition en de demand voor een possible communicatie.

[0:59:13] Dit is wat we willen.

[0:59:14] We need peaceful transition.

[0:59:15] We want together to preserve

[0:59:17] independency of

[0:59:19] Belarus, to preserve our national

[0:59:21] identity. And this is how we

[0:59:24] see it. And we

[0:59:25] Americans also know this position

[0:59:27] and pushing

[0:59:29] these narratives in Belarus.

[0:59:32] But for the regime to

[0:59:33] agree with this, they have to be

[0:59:35] in very weak

[0:59:38] condition through sanctions, through

[0:59:39] policy of isolation. They have to

[0:59:41] be pariah. Of course, a lot

[0:59:43] We are not connected with Russia.

[0:59:45] But this narrative that until in Russia, changes will come,

[0:59:50] nothing will happen in Belarus, also is an illusion.

[0:59:54] Because I'm absolutely sure that changes in Russia

[0:59:56] will start from changes in Belarus.

[0:59:59] Because our society is more consolidated, it's not fragmented.

[1:00:03] We are working as a single nation.

[1:00:08] So that's why it's much easier to bring changes in small Belarus

[1:00:12] en dan om het in Rusland te brengen.

[1:00:15] Vooral nu, als de Ukraine is strong,

[1:00:17] als onze Europese vrienden,

[1:00:20] de Europese union,

[1:00:21] wordt ook bolder en...

[1:00:27] ...decisive.

[1:00:28] Dus ik denk dat het een grote, grote kans voor Belarus.

[1:00:32] De veranderingen in mijn land zijn de obligatie van de Belarus.

[1:00:35] Maar we moeten echt de situatie van 2020

[1:00:38] In 2010, we ask you to distinguish Belarusian regime from people,

[1:00:50] and distinguish Russia from Belarus.

[1:00:53] Our country is not backyard, not satellite of Russia.

[1:00:56] We want to decide on our future by ourselves.

[1:01:02] And it also should be public messages.

[1:01:04] Belarus is Europe. Belarus is not Russia.

[1:01:07] You are welcomed. We just want to help you.

[1:01:10] So it really will inspire people as well.

[1:01:15] Thank you very much.

[1:01:17] We came to the final words of Mrs. Tychanowska.

[1:01:23] Thank you very much for visiting us again.

[1:01:26] Thank you.

[1:01:26] I wish you all the best in the coming time.

[1:01:29] And we are very much and well informed now

[1:01:32] so that we can do our work better concerning your country.

[1:01:37] Dus het was heel belangrijk om je hier te hebben.

[1:01:40] En please feel free and feel welcome to come again.

[1:01:43] Dank u.