Iran

[0:00:00] Goedemiddag.

[0:00:06] Ik open de vergadering van de Vaste Commissie voor Buitenlandse Zaken.

[0:00:10] Het betreft hier een ronde tafelgesprek.

[0:00:12] Hartelijk welkom aan al onze gasten en welkom aan de collega's.

[0:00:17] We gaan dit doen in het Engels, dus de rest van het programma zullen we in het Engels doen.

[0:00:21] Welcome to our dear guests.

[0:00:24] Welcome in the House of Commons.

[0:00:27] You're here guests of the standing committee on foreign affairs.

[0:00:30] I would like to give you the floor to give an introduction of a maximum of five minutes.

[0:00:35] And then there will be the opportunity for the members of parliament to ask you some questions.

[0:00:40] So please, if I can first give the floor to Mr.

[0:00:43] Jazzy.

[0:00:44] Yes.

[0:00:45] If you could use the microphone.

[0:00:48] Absolutely.

[0:00:49] And if you finished your introduction, if you also could close the microphone.

[0:00:52] Absolutely, I will.

[0:00:53] Thank you so much.

[0:00:55] Thanks very much.

[0:00:55] I'd like to thank first the Standing Committee of Foreign Affairs of the Trade Camera for organizing this very timely public panel.

[0:01:03] And I appreciate your openness and willingness to participate in thinking about Iran.

[0:01:09] My name is Arash Jazi, and I'm trained as a historian and specialized in the politics, culture, media of Iran.

[0:01:16] And this is the position from which I speak at this panel today.

[0:01:19] In the five minutes, very short time that I have to address this committee, I list three points that I think would be important for the upcoming challenges that any European institutions will be facing in their future relationships with Iran, including the Dutch government.

[0:01:36] First point I want to mention is that even though the situation is very noisy right now in Iran, and it's becoming very hard for all of us in Europe, at least, to know what's really happening inside the country, inside the regime more specifically, we should begin with the premise that whatever political preferences Iranians have, republicanism, monarchism, federalism, and so on, they want a free, democratic, secular country.

[0:02:04] This is the bare minimum of demands.

[0:02:06] And the statistical work on that is already done.

[0:02:09] We don't have time to reproduce them for you.

[0:02:12] I'm sure you've heard of this.

[0:02:13] We know it.

[0:02:14] Iranians want removing power and privilege from all religious institutions.

[0:02:20] This is clear, this is straightforward.

[0:02:22] This means that the Iranians will not accept living with a moderate, reasonable Islamic regime without the nuclear program, with the same religious institutions, having the same power, and having the same kind of privileges.

[0:02:36] That's not going to work.

[0:02:39] People in Iran don't want the Islamic regime in any form.

[0:02:42] Islamic regime has become the same as economic collapse.

[0:02:46] That means crackdown.

[0:02:47] It has been perceived as misogyny, human rights abuse, mass killings, and an absolute unwillingness to change for the people.

[0:02:56] And it will continue to kill secular life in all its forms, as far as it exists.

[0:03:02] We should know this, this must be clear.

[0:03:04] Now, this means that the European institutions who have to work for any practical reason with this regime in the future, hopefully not for too long, need a diplomatic and supervisory structure, a diplomatic and a supervisory structure that prioritizes the protection of life in Iran, the protection of secular life in Iran over and above economic relationships with the regime.

[0:03:29] I can imagine that Tefe de Kammer has the tools to think of effective mechanisms to make this ethical supervision work.

[0:03:38] And if you see the Dutch government as a secular government, make it act as a secular government in its international relations as well.

[0:03:46] And this would not necessarily mean being blind to your trade partner's religious identity in the name of respect for other cultures, but the exact opposite.

[0:03:56] Het betekent een program dat betekent het politiek islam in het verschillende formen en het voertuigen voertuigen werken met het entierlijke, of onkonditionen dat het betekent.

[0:04:08] Dus even als ze in een relatie ze hebben met je, mensen met rational decision-making, dit betekent niet dat ze zijn secular mensen, als ze continu te kiezen, ze continu te discrimineren tegen vrouwen, tegen minorities, en tegen non-religieus mensen.

[0:04:25] So that approach would not be disrespect for other cultures, it would be recognition and respect for the secular choices of other cultures.

[0:04:33] Second point I wish to make is that we all need more structured collaborations between European governments, the parliaments, all the institutions that work with them, and the informed communities of Iranian diaspora.

[0:04:48] The only way forward for all of us is to work with the Iranian diaspora, with the secular Iranian diaspora people.

[0:04:55] That's the only way, not with regime apologetics, not with regime lobbyists.

[0:05:01] I hope that that period is over.

[0:05:03] And our public performances here, Iranian diaspora, show clearly well who is who.

[0:05:09] You can clearly see the distinctions.

[0:05:11] Now, people in Iranian diaspora has useful skill, has useful knowledge about what's going on in Iran, and about creating more networks and meaningful relationships,

[0:05:19] En er is compelling historical evidence in favor of the power of diaspora people.

[0:05:24] We haven't used them enough.

[0:05:26] We need to use that power more responsibly.

[0:05:29] And the third and the final point I want to make, hopefully very short, is personality politics.

[0:05:33] We have many opposition representatives who has been helping with gaining public rallies, public attention, create global awareness about Iran.

[0:05:43] Very helpful sometimes.

[0:05:45] Maar zoals de resten van ons Iranians in Diaspora, ze niet hebben een programe voor veranderen.

[0:05:54] En als ze dat doen, en dat is een belangrijk punt, en ik denk dat dit is belangrijk voor jullie, in de 3e en de 4e panelen, het does niet seem dat het werken welke programe mensen hebben.

[0:06:08] So we need to find ways to help creating these programmes with a diverse range of secular people, including the faces of opposition, of course.

[0:06:16] And I don't know how that's going to work.

[0:06:18] This is just a weakness that I recognize among ourselves and I wish to raise and I wish to address directly and clearly.

[0:06:25] So these were the three points I wanted to make.

[0:06:27] Thank you for listening and I look forward to your questions and discussions.

[0:06:30] Thank you so much, Mr. Josie.

[0:06:32] And I would like to give the floor to Mr. Rezae Daria Kamari.

[0:06:37] Dank u wel voor de voorzitter.

[0:06:58] I speak here in my personal capacity as a researcher.

[0:07:02] The voice most often missing from our debate on Iran is the one that matters most, the Iranian public.

[0:07:09] What fills that silence instead is partial framing.

[0:07:14] Sincere, but partial.

[0:07:16] So let me bring the public in through evidence.

[0:07:19] The Islamic Republic is weaker than ever, but not gentler.

[0:07:23] If anything, more dangerous.

[0:07:26] We know what happened on 8th and 9th of January, the largest killing in Iran's modern history.

[0:07:32] And it has not stopped.

[0:07:35] More than 2,000 people were executed last year.

[0:07:38] And this year the pace is even faster.

[0:07:41] About five executions a day.

[0:07:43] Many more are waiting on death row.

[0:07:46] And yet the sentence we hear too often from some European politician is this.

[0:07:52] The regime is terrible, but Iranians are divided.

[0:07:57] Maar dit is niet een weakness, het is politiek.

[0:07:59] Dit hele parlement weet hoe hard coalitie building is.

[0:08:05] Iranians zijn nog steeds in de democratische capaciteiten.

[0:08:08] Respectfully, de sentence, ''Iranians are divided'' to often becomes an excuse to do nothing, of to keep the response symbolic.

[0:08:19] In fact,

[0:08:20] Er is less division than many assume, especially inside Iran.

[0:08:24] My own survey shows two clear and stable findings.

[0:08:28] First, most Iranians want to replace the Islamic Republic, not reformists.

[0:08:34] Second, their trust is not scattered.

[0:08:38] Wave after wave, and by a wide margin, it gathers around one figure, Reza Pahlavi.

[0:08:44] And this is not limited to the center of the country.

[0:08:47] It appears across regions.

[0:08:49] This is what two independent studies show, mine and Gammons, the public opinion project at Tilburg and Utrecht Universities.

[0:08:57] The Women's Life Freedom Movement also shows how flawed the divided Iranian's story can be.

[0:09:04] The killing in custody of a Kurdish woman, Mahsa Jina Amini, brought the whole country into the streets, across every ethnic groups and regional lines.

[0:09:15] Among those later executed was a young man, Majid Reza Rahnavar, hanged with a broken arm, broken because it bore a tattoo of the lion and son.

[0:09:26] A monarchie is from the east dying in support of a Kurdish woman from the west.

[0:09:31] That is not a people hopelessly divided.

[0:09:34] Most Iranians share a demand for human rights and democratic values.

[0:09:40] Of course, there are disagreements about the future.

[0:09:43] federal or unitary, republic or constitutional monarchy, but these are questions of how to build a state, which every democracy answers differently.

[0:09:53] The Netherlands is a constitutional monarchy, Germany a federal republic.

[0:09:59] Minority rights to language, culture and religion must be guaranteed, but the shape of the state is for Iranians to decide at the ballot box.

[0:10:09] So how should we judge the opposition?

[0:10:12] I suggest one test.

[0:10:13] Does a group offer a clear open plan or define itself only by who it opposes?

[0:10:21] Mr. Motadi in panel 3 has stressed the rights of the Kurds to their language and culture in Iran.

[0:10:27] Mr. Pahlavi in panel 4 has put forward four principles in writing.

[0:10:34] Iran's territorial integrity, a secular state,

[0:10:37] Equal rights and individual freedom and a ballot box to choose the form of the state.

[0:10:43] He is today the most permanent opponent of the Islamic Republic inside and outside of Iran and under evidence the figure most Iranians look to to lead a transition toward a free democratic Iran under the rule of law.

[0:10:56] So, I would ask you to look at the opposition figures and their plans directly, not through the image painted by their rivals, to hold everyone to the same democratic test.

[0:11:10] I have several suggestions for what the Netherlands and EU can do, and I would welcome the chance to discuss them with you in the Q&A.

[0:11:17] To conclude, the real question is whether Europe will keep treating the Islamic Republic as permanent,

[0:11:24] Iranians have already decided it is not.

[0:11:29] Help them and you will save lives and make the Netherlands and Europe safer.

[0:11:33] Thank you.

[0:11:35] Dank u wel.

[0:11:56] 10,000 people were killed in Iran, because the responses were divided.

[0:12:01] And we're seeing, at least from my perspective, we're seeing that it's difficult to raise momentum against the Iranian regime.

[0:12:10] And my question is, how do you feel or how do you assess

[0:12:14] the Dutch and European standpoint and actions that were taken, and how could the European EU help in the points that you were both addressing towards a transfer of hopefully a democratic system where the people of Iran and the different people, communities can also thrive.

[0:12:35] We collect first some questions, so if you don't mind.

[0:12:50] Thank you very much.

[0:12:51] Thanks for your introductions.

[0:12:55] We have spoken to many members of the diaspora in the past month.

[0:12:59] I have at least.

[0:13:03] Something I would like to ask is about the division between all the groups that we've talked to.

[0:13:09] Because you mentioned, Mr. Yasi, I think it was you who mentioned that it's important for the diaspora to play a role to make Iran, to form Iran into a democratic country.

[0:13:23] Maar ik was vondering, hoe denk je de diaspora kan samenwerken?

[0:13:29] Want ja, in Iran de verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschillende verschill

[0:13:53] Ja, dank u, en dank u ook voor uw opening remarks.

[0:13:57] Ik heb een vraag over hoe de Iranian mensen voelen over de prospects van politieke reformen.

[0:14:01] Heb je de hoogte voor een betreft voor een betreft volledig volledig afdelingen en de war?

[0:14:06] En of u kunt een beetje meer over de situatie van politieke prisoners en wat kind van pressen we volledig van Nederland of Europa?

[0:14:14] En u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u, u

[0:14:23] So about the first question, the Dutch response, the European response, well that is assessment that is not up to me to do, it's up to the Dutch government to do, or the members of the politicians to do.

[0:14:33] I would definitely invite them to self-assess.

[0:14:36] For the diaspora, how do they come together?

[0:14:39] I think that they don't necessarily have to be united in the same way that no multiplicity of politics or of diplomatic efforts or of any sort of resistance have to be united or coherent in a way that you can have a representative of it and a conical structure of top-down system.

[0:15:00] Het kan be múltiple, het kan hebben verschillende voix, het kan be een diverse, fragmented space, maar het kan nog steeds functionen.

[0:15:08] En dat is, ik denk, de rol dat de Europese parlement, Europese entities of institutions kan play, Europese media kan play, in maken deze diversiteit translatable into politiek, translatable into knowledge about Iran, translatable into actionable programen.

[0:15:25] Het doesn't have to be, we have all the tools in the 21st century to make a diverse, fragmented system speak in legitimate voice, to have a legitimate form of expression.

[0:15:37] It doesn't have to be some 19th century top-down thing that we need, for which we need a representative.

[0:15:43] Dat is de answer to diaspora.

[0:15:45] Diaspora is functing, niet in de best way, maar het is functing.

[0:15:50] En het heeft sources te offer.

[0:15:52] We kunnen die sources in.

[0:15:53] En om de reformen, de vraag, ik wil ik het proberen.

[0:15:59] De reformen, Iranians don't want reform, period.

[0:16:03] En er is geen reform in reform dat maakt niet meer.

[0:16:06] Er was een tijd, misschien in de late 90's, omdat de

[0:16:10] direct efforts of the European states, especially the German states, to introduce the language of reform through all the Islamic organizations that operated in Hamburg and other places, to tell the world that the Islamic regime is a rational state and that it can operate rationally

[0:16:29] reasonably en kan be a weak form of secular state I don't think we should have any sort of a fantasy about that anymore and in my view reform is dead in Iran and whatever format it may have as a reform as we can hear that maybe now they're reasonable or whatever it's absurd it's meaningless it doesn't have any political value

[0:16:51] En over de politische prinsen, de situatie, ik kan alleen zeggen dat het is horribelig.

[0:16:57] Dezelfde wat je hebt gezegd 10 jaar geleden.

[0:17:00] Dezelfde wat je hebt gezegd in 1988 massacres van prinsen in Iran.

[0:17:04] Dezelfde wat je hebt gezegd in de dag 1 van de 1979 revolutie.

[0:17:07] Wat heeft gegeven?

[0:17:12] Het is dezelfde.

[0:17:12] Dank u.

[0:17:12] Thank you.

[0:17:13] Thank you for the time.

[0:17:14] So I'll go over the question one by one.

[0:17:16] So for the EU and Dutch governments, I give you a benchmark to compare how you are responding to Iran and what's happening in Iran with Russia.

[0:17:27] So, recently you decided about having the court in place, right, in the Netherlands.

[0:17:35] Where is the court for persecuting who are responsible about the massacre in January, right?

[0:17:41] About the sanctions.

[0:17:42] The sanctions that you impose...

[0:17:44] My concern is that sanctions are not meant to be effective.

[0:17:48] They are just to give a signal and make sure that we are imposing sanctions, we are doing something.

[0:17:55] I would call them symbolic reactions.

[0:17:59] Regarding division, that's the elephant in the room, right?

[0:18:03] But it's not only Iran.

[0:18:04] All of the movements, when you look at the history, for example, the Solidarity Movement in Poland,

[0:18:10] It was divided as well.

[0:18:11] It's called solidarity, but it was divided.

[0:18:15] The West helped them to come together and work with each other and move toward solidarity.

[0:18:22] Solidarity is the job of the opposition,

[0:18:25] I think the Western countries, EU and Netherlands, should facilitate that by bringing all of the opposition together.

[0:18:33] You should accept that we have a diverse society and we have different representatives, but reward those who want to

[0:18:41] reach a hand and welcome other people to form a coalition and those making most of the activities in the parliaments and in the media against the opposition leaders, other opposition leaders.

[0:18:56] Some of the opposition figures

[0:18:58] Dat is een probleem.

[0:19:01] En dat is een probleem.

[0:19:04] En dat is een probleem.

[0:19:06] En dat is een probleem.

[0:19:07] En dat is een probleem.

[0:19:11] En dat is een probleem.

[0:19:13] What you are doing, you understand that.

[0:19:16] They should come also to their census.

[0:19:19] If they have... The Dutch... The Netherlands has a lot of parties.

[0:19:25] Not all of the parties are at the table, right?

[0:19:29] They should accept that some opposition leaders are more popular, some are less popular.

[0:19:34] It doesn't mean that we want to ignore the rights of those who are smaller.

[0:19:40] We hebben een smaller group, een smaller support.

[0:19:43] Human rights guarantees iedereen's right.

[0:19:46] Dat moet de baseline zijn.

[0:19:48] Maar niet iedereen zit op de table, of niet heeft dezelfde power in coalitionsmaking, als je een smaller support hebt.

[0:19:58] And regarding the prospect of the regime change, I just mirror what my colleague Dr.

[0:20:04] Jazzy said.

[0:20:06] Indeed, stop thinking that the Islamic Republic can reform.

[0:20:12] 47 years.

[0:20:15] treat the Islamic Republic like an adult in the world.

[0:20:19] They had 47 years to reform, to modify their behaviours.

[0:20:25] They didn't do it.

[0:20:27] They don't have an intention to do it.

[0:20:30] Many people died for the hijab during the woman's life freedom.

[0:20:34] They even made the hijab law even stronger, more strict, decided to punish that.

[0:20:41] So they don't want to reform.

[0:20:42] They don't welcome the reform.

[0:20:45] And people inside of Iran know that.

[0:20:47] I hope the politicians outside of Iran, in Europe and in the U.S., also understand that reform is not a path.

[0:20:53] It's done.

[0:20:55] Regarding political prisoners,

[0:20:58] It's an awful situation.

[0:21:00] I said that almost an average five people are executed per day in 2026.

[0:21:07] And still we see that the ambassador is here.

[0:21:12] They have been called for expelling or decreasing diplomatic relationship with the Islamic Republic.

[0:21:21] If killing 2,000 people, executing 2,000 people, if killing people, executing people during the war, at the New Year's Eve of Iranian, Nowruz, is not enough for you to decrease diplomatic relationship with the Islamic Republic, what is enough for you?

[0:21:41] What else do you want to see?

[0:21:44] Dat was het, dank u.

[0:22:00] We've talked to an expert recently with members of the Commission, and he said to us the only way Iran can have a new democratic government would be by state collapse.

[0:22:15] How do you look at that?

[0:22:17] Miss Abdi.

[0:22:19] No, thank you for your remarks.

[0:22:20] I thought clear to state when I asked about reform.

[0:22:23] I wasn't talking about reform of the current regime.

[0:22:25] Let me be very clear.

[0:22:26] I was not talking about that.

[0:22:28] And maybe to ask a follow-up question, because both of you mentioned you would like help from Netherlands and other European countries to resort structured collaboration to facilitate all the minority groups in a role, I would assume also of women.

[0:22:40] So I was wondering, can you be a bit more specific on the details on what you envision for that?

[0:22:47] Yes, of course.

[0:22:51] So the state collapse, yeah, the expert is right.

[0:22:58] I think that's the only way that the state... But this doesn't mean that the state collapse is near.

[0:23:03] This doesn't mean that we don't know, not that it's far.

[0:23:07] We don't have any calculated and informed view of what's going to happen.

[0:23:17] I personally don't have any fantasy about a free democratic future for Iran.

[0:23:24] I don't see that happening and I have a more kind of cautious view of that unless the Iranian people are given the agency that they require both internationally, both in terms of media attention and in terms of the seriousness that European states should be giving them.

[0:23:44] But in terms of, so that's not an answer.

[0:23:46] Het is gewoon een open question.

[0:23:48] State collapse is een groot concept en we niet weten wat is gebeurd.

[0:23:52] Maar in termes van meer details, ik denk dat dit niet de plaats voor mij te listen.

[0:23:58] Maar ik denk dat de eerste stap is te recognize de Iranian-diasporal communities.

[0:24:03] Ze existen around, ik denk dat ze ook hier in deze room zijn in de volgende panelen.

[0:24:08] They are working very hard, not in terms of representation of Iranian people or communities, but in terms of doing the groundwork of how to connect people, what kind of discourse to create about Iran.

[0:24:21] They write, they are journalists and writers.

[0:24:25] The first one would be a listing of these, knowing who they are, instead of trusting the names of the lobbyists and apologetics to work with.

[0:24:35] Thank you.

[0:24:36] Mr. Rezaid Dariak-Kamari, final words for you.

[0:24:40] Let's say collapse.

[0:24:41] I think it's something that how this transition happened requires us actually indeed bringing different experts to have a conversation and discuss this, right?

[0:24:50] But I don't think that a state collapse happens.

[0:24:53] The reason, through the transition, because if it wanted to happen, actually it could happen as a result of the war or the invasion that happened by Israel and the U.S., right?

[0:25:05] So the state and the society, when we are talking about the collapse of a country, we are not talking about the collapse of a state, but the societal collapse as well.

[0:25:15] And I don't think it didn't happen.

[0:25:17] Instead, the pressure should be large enough by the EU and the Western countries to bring the country toward a transition point and accept a free, open referendum.

[0:25:31] And going to the next question, Ms.

[0:25:36] Abdi.

[0:25:37] Thank you for the clarification on the reform.

[0:25:40] The situation is, of course, awful and challenging, right?

[0:25:45] So, women's rights at the highest level is something that has been under pressure since the very...

[0:25:54] It was the first victim of the Islamic Republic after the revolution.

[0:25:57] Iranian women have been fighting back very hard, but they deserve more and they should receive more support from the EU and the West.

[0:26:07] I keep it short.

[0:26:07] I'm so sorry, but we have much more rounds to follow.

[0:26:12] Thank you so much for your introductions and thank you so much for the questions.

[0:26:18] So this is the end of round two with the experts on Iran.

[0:26:22] Now we will proceed with round two with Iranian politicians and human rights activists.

[0:28:23] All right, let's proceed with this roundtable, with round two, Iranian politicians and human rights activists.

[0:28:31] We do it in exact the same organization of this round, so you get a maximum of five minutes of introduction, and then there is the opportunity for the members of parliament to ask you any questions.

[0:28:45] We just start with Ms.

[0:28:47] Shiragai.

[0:28:49] Thank you, chair, honorable members of the parliament.

[0:28:53] My name is Negin Shuraqai.

[0:28:55] I'm a political strategist active in the opposition, as well as the founder and director of Azadi Network.

[0:29:01] So, at the core of Iran's current struggle lies a tension between the politics of I and the politics of we.

[0:29:08] Across more than a century of political change, one pattern has persisted.

[0:29:12] The concentration of power in the hands of a few, and the imposition of a singular vision on a diverse society.

[0:29:19] Time and again, political transitions have replaced one eye with another, without addressing the deeper crisis of representation.

[0:29:27] We see this danger resurfacing today.

[0:29:30] Narratives are emerging that claims to speak for Iran through a single voice, centralized, exclusionary, and often accompanied by calls for militarization and external intervention.

[0:29:43] These narratives present themselves as solutions, yet.

[0:29:47] They replicate the very logic that has produced Iran's current crisis.

[0:29:53] But Iran is not an eye, it's a weave.

[0:29:56] It's a society of extraordinary diversity.

[0:29:59] Women who have led one of the most amazing courageous movements of our time.

[0:30:05] Workers and teachers who continue to organise despite the risks of imprisonment.

[0:30:10] And ethnic and religious communities demanding equal citizenships.

[0:30:15] War is not a democratic transition strategy.

[0:30:19] The experience of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria demonstrates that military intervention does not produce stable democratic institutions.

[0:30:28] It does not build trust, pluralism, or a political culture that is required for a durable democracy.

[0:30:35] A past built on violence will not open a space for democratic participation.

[0:30:40] It will close it further.

[0:30:42] And its stability in Iran will not remain within its borders.

[0:30:47] It will spill across the region, deepen forced migrations, expand transnational repression that you experienced here in Nederland, and directly affects Europe's security and values.

[0:30:59] Alternative is not the inaction.

[0:31:03] The alternative is a different framework, the one that is grounded in the politics of we.

[0:31:09] This means recognizing that sustainable change in Iran can only come through the self-determination of its people.

[0:31:16] het means supporting de conditions under which the diverse Iranian actors can organise, cooperate, and shape a shared democratic future.

[0:31:26] This parliament, and Europe more broadly, can play a meaningful role in it.

[0:31:31] Not by choosing Iran's leader, not by choosing Iran's future, but by helping create the conditions in which the Iranians can freely decide those questions themselves.

[0:31:45] That requires supporting accountability mechanisms for grave human rights violations that the Islamic Republic is doing right now.

[0:31:52] De ICC proces is one of them.

[0:31:54] Amnesty International, Human Rights have amazing recommendations that you can follow.

[0:32:00] Also, you can ask your embassy in Tehran to be present in the trial of people under execution.

[0:32:06] That's a practical one step that you can take.

[0:32:10] Support democratic actors.

[0:32:12] die onderwerpen de essentieel werk van de co-operaal en de instituie van de building.

[0:32:18] Deze acties zijn niet symbolisch.

[0:32:20] Ze zijn directe aan de capaciteit van de iranische societyen om de verandering te veranderen inclusively en in een manier dat is consistent met Europese values en Europese interests.

[0:32:31] The question before you is not whether change will come to Iran, but the change is already underway.

[0:32:38] The question is whether democratic forces, civil society, women and diverse communities will have the support they need to shape that change in a way that advances stability, human rights and peace.

[0:32:51] Because the future of Iran will not be built by governments alone.

[0:32:55] It will be built by us.

[0:32:57] Thank you.

[0:33:07] Excuse me, thank you so much.

[0:33:09] Mr Ulla, the floor is yours.

[0:33:11] Esteemed members of parliament, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen.

[0:33:18] Excuse me, could you use the microphone?

[0:33:19] And if you could close your microphone.

[0:33:23] Thank you so much.

[0:33:25] Esteemed members of parliament, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen.

[0:33:30] I would like to thank the Dutch parliament and the Foreign Affairs Committee for giving me

[0:33:35] ZANG EN MUZIEK.

[0:33:55] Sorry, excuse me, sir.

[0:34:13] Excuse me.

[0:34:20] Please, it's absolutely not allowed.

[0:34:23] It's absolutely not allowed.

[0:34:25] And I will not allow it in this room, in this standing committee, that you will intervene from as a public here in this meeting.

[0:34:32] In deze vergadering is het absoluut niet toegestaan om u te mengen in deze vergadering.

[0:34:54] Het is belangrijk dat leden van het parlement kunnen horen wat deze mensen te zeggen hebben hier.

[0:34:58] Mocht u dat wel doen, dan rest mij niets anders dan u te verwijderen hier uit de zaal.

[0:35:06] Wij gaan verder.

[0:35:08] Thank you.

[0:35:10] Balochistan is Balochistan, I said, with its own history, identity and culture.

[0:35:16] Balochistan literally means the land of the Baloch people.

[0:35:19] Our country is larger than France in terms of land and area.

[0:35:24] Like Kurdistan, we are divided among several countries.

[0:35:28] Balochistan is divided between Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.

[0:35:33] We were an independent state for centuries.

[0:35:35] British Empire occupied our country and divided into three parts.

[0:35:40] The western part of Balochistan is now called Iranian-occupied Balochistan.

[0:35:46] The western part of Balochistan was ceded to the Iranian Gajar Empire by British officer General Goldsmith in 1871.

[0:35:56] Despite it, Balochistan remained de facto independent until it was conquered and incorporated into Persia by force under Reza Pahlavi in 1928.

[0:36:09] The Iranian army used air power during campaign,

[0:36:16] including German and Russian aircraft, to crush Boluch national resistance.

[0:36:24] Since 1928, the Boluch nation has continued to demand independence, national liberation.

[0:36:32] We are not a tribe, we are an occupied nation.

[0:36:36] We do not accept the denial of our existence while we have our own language, culture and history.

[0:36:44] In Iran, Baluch land is divided among four, further, within Iran.

[0:36:51] Baluch land is divided among four provinces, but we are the vast majority along the whole southern coast up to the state Hormuz.

[0:37:04] You can see that although we are 5 percent of the population, strategically we matter.

[0:37:12] The Baluch are among the most persecuted ethnic group in Iran.

[0:37:19] The Baluch people make up only 5 percent of Iran's total population, but account for an estimated 20 to 30 percent of all executions carried out in Iran.

[0:37:33] We treated as a colony under the Paliwi regime, and we continue to be treated as a colony under the Islamic Republic.

[0:37:42] Under a secular or shia government, whether under monarchy or mullahs, the Baloch people have demanded freedom.

[0:37:58] They have always been oppressed for their demand.

[0:38:02] Baloch political parties have a deep political understanding and cooperation with non-Parsian nations.

[0:38:10] within Iran, such as the Kurds, Ahwazi Arab, and Turks.

[0:38:16] Iran is not exclusively Persian.

[0:38:19] It is a multi-ethnic state and non-Parsian nation account for more than 50 percent of its population.

[0:38:29] Therefore, Iran's future cannot be decided without its non-Parsian population, without the cooperation of these non-Parsian nations.

[0:38:38] De volgende regioen zal niet verlaten, maar ook geen land kan ignoreren 50% van de populaaties.

[0:38:48] De pre-Bolestanen heeft een economie transatioen en een democratische politische transatioen plan voor Iran.

[0:38:58] Het is een transatioen plan, die decentralisee Iran en geeft de righte om de nationale self-determination.

[0:39:09] Het is niet uiteraard in nieuwe landen.

[0:39:13] We zijn niet uiteraard om Iran te zaken.

[0:39:18] De meest van de non-Parschiaan organisaties in principe accepte de idee van de transition.

[0:39:24] Niemand accepte de transition in die we weer blijven uit van de decision-making-proces.

[0:39:32] Als de non-Parschiaan blijven, dan wordt er een verhaal om naar de instantie divisie van Iran.

[0:39:38] We reject Mullah en monarkie.

[0:39:57] We demand decentralization and democracy.

[0:40:07] Mevrouw Eskandri zal ons in het Nederlands te woord staan.

[0:40:34] Harte voorzitter, geachte leden van de Commissie van Buitenlandse Zaken, dank dat ik vandaag het woord mag voeren.

[0:40:39] Voordat ik begin wil ik één ding heel erg duidelijk maken.

[0:40:43] Ik ben niet dé stem van het volk, ik ben niet de Iraanse diaspora.

[0:40:47] Niemand kan pretenderen dé stem van het Iraanse volk te zijn.

[0:40:51] Iran telt ruim 90 miljoen inwoners.

[0:40:54] Hun politieke overtuigingen, achtergronden, toekomstvisies zijn divers.

[0:40:59] Ook de Iraanse diaspora is geen homogene gemeenschap.

[0:41:03] Spreken alsof één persoon, één dynasty of één politieke beweging namens alle Iraniërs spreekt, is een farse.

[0:41:10] Als ik mezelf een politiek label mag geven deze dagen, dan gebruik ik de woorden van Sepideza Rinkelk.

[0:41:16] Ik ben politiek dakloos.

[0:41:17] Hierin ben ik helaas niet alleen.

[0:41:20] Veel Iraniers voelen zich politiek verweest.

[0:41:23] Ik ben tegen de Islamitische Republiek.

[0:41:25] Wij willen niet terugkeren naar het verleden.

[0:41:28] Maar een democratische toekomst waarin iedereen vrij kan leven, ongeacht taal, afkomst, religie of politieke overtuiging.

[0:41:37] De kern van de Iraanse vrijheidsbeweging bevindt zich nog altijd binnen Iran, in mijn optiek.

[0:41:42] Daarom moeten we hun namen ook blijven benoemen.

[0:41:45] Ze bestaan.

[0:41:46] Wie zijn het?

[0:41:48] Deze mensen doen ertoe.

[0:42:01] Zij betalen de prijs niet met woorden, maar met gevangenschap, marteling, intimidatie en soms met hun leven.

[0:42:09] Een van mijn volkshelden,

[0:42:12] Sorry, één seconde.

[0:42:16] De vraag, het is niet toegestaan om u te mengen in het debat.

[0:42:21] Doet u het wel, dan wordt u verwijderd.

[0:42:23] It's not allowed to speak up in this meeting.

[0:42:29] If you do so, you will be removed.

[0:42:34] Ik schorst de vergadering voor enkele...

[0:42:38] Ik schorst de vergadering...

[0:42:40] Ik schorst de vergadering voor enkele ogenblikken.

[0:42:57] Ook voor u geld.

[0:42:59] Ook voor u geld.

[0:43:00] Ook dit is niet toegestaan.

[0:43:03] Het is belangrijk dat het parlement alle geluiden kan horen die er zijn.

[0:43:06] Het gaat niet over de vraag of we het eens zijn met de spreeks of niet.

[0:43:08] Het parlement moet zich kunnen informeren.

[0:43:10] Op het moment dat het niet kan, dan ben ik echt genoodzaakt om de hele zaal te ontruimen.

[0:43:13] Dat wil ik niet.

[0:43:15] Gaat u verder.

[0:43:17] Dank.

[0:43:18] Zoals een van mijn volkshelden als Iraanse koord, Farzad de Khamanjar, een Koerdische leraar.

[0:43:24] Hij werd gearresteerd in 2006, gruwelijk gemarteld en in 2010 geëxecuteerd.

[0:43:29] Zijn naam staat symbool.

[0:43:31] Voor duizenden politieke gevangenen.

[0:43:33] en voor de structurele onderdrukking van minderheden in Iran, met name de Koerden.

[0:43:38] De situatie is grijnend.

[0:43:39] Sinds december is de repressie opnieuw verhard.

[0:43:42] Executies nemen toe, politieke gevangenen worden sneller en zonder een eerlijk proces veroordeeld.

[0:43:47] Families worden onder druk gezegd, activisten verdwijnen of worden letterlijk monddood gemaakt.

[0:43:53] Een hele samenleving wordt gegijzeld op dit moment, met angst.

[0:43:58] Op 8 en 9 januari, kan niet vaak genoeg benadrukt worden, zijn duizenden mensen op straat vermoord.

[0:44:03] Door het regime.

[0:44:05] Door het eigen volk.

[0:44:07] Schattingen lopen uiteen.

[0:44:08] Tussen 7000 tot mogelijk 30.000 doden.

[0:44:11] Onder de slachtoffers zijn kinderen, jongeren, studenten, arbeiders en gewone burgers die enkel vrijheid eisten.

[0:44:18] De cijfers liegen er niet om.

[0:44:20] 200 vermoorde kinderen en honderden sporters die slachtoffer zijn geworden van repressie.

[0:44:25] Waarom?

[0:44:26] Enkel omdat ze vrijheid wilden?

[0:44:28] Achter iedere cijfer zit een mens, een kind, een moeder, een broer, een zus, een toekomst.

[0:44:34] Daarom vraag ik u, de commissie, kijk niet alleen naar politiek.

[0:44:38] Kijk niet naar nucleaire dossiers of geopolitieke belangen.

[0:44:41] Kijk naar de mensen.

[0:44:43] Kijk naar de politieke gevangenen, de geëxecuteerden, de minderheden, de vluchtelingen.

[0:44:49] En laten we het daarover hebben.

[0:44:50] De vluchtelingen op dit moment hier in Nederland.

[0:44:52] Meer dan duizend Iraanse vluchtelingen leven in onzekerheid op dit moment over hun verblijfssituatie.

[0:44:58] Teruggaan naar Iran kan een doodvonnis zijn.

[0:45:01] Laten we ze niet vergeten.

[0:45:02] Zij vallen op dit moment nog meer dan alles tussen wal en schip.

[0:45:05] En dan kom ik bij de vraag van de vertegenwoordiging.

[0:45:08] Achter gesloten deuren gaat u zo iemand spreken... waarvan u de aanhang al heeft gezien.

[0:45:15] Mijn vraag aan u, omdat wij er zelf niet bij kunnen zijn, is... kunt u dan deze vragen stellen?

[0:45:20] In 1979 kwam de Iranse bevolking in opstand tegen onderdrukking.

[0:45:24] Ook tegen de Pahlavi-dynastie.

[0:45:26] Hoe verhoudt de heer Reza Pahlavi zich tot de geschiedenis?

[0:45:30] Hoe garandeert hij een democratie in Iran met rechten en erkenning voor alle minderheden... wanneer hij zich beroept op de autoriteit van een dynastie die destijds dat niet deed?

[0:45:40] Welke partijen, maatschappelijke organisaties of verzetgroepen op dit moment binnen Iran steunt hij?

[0:45:46] En waarom wordt het leiderschap van de Iraanse oppositie niet gevormd door de mensen die daar vandaan komen... ...en op dit moment in de gevangenissen zitten, worden gemarteld of geëxecuteerd?

[0:45:55] Iran is geen homogeen land.

[0:45:57] Iran bestaat uit Koerden, Balouchen, Arabieren, Azeris, Turkmens, Lors, Perzen en zoveel anderen.

[0:46:04] Een vrij Iran kan alleen bestaan als al deze gemeenschappen worden erkend.

[0:46:08] Niet als bedreiging, niet als separatisten, maar als gelijkwaardig volk.

[0:46:12] Ik sluit af, ik zie u al naar de microfoon gaan.

[0:46:15] Een vrij Iran moet democratisch, puliform en rechtvaardig zijn.

[0:46:19] De mensen in Iran vragen u.

[0:46:20] Wij vragen u om vrijheid, waardigheid en leven.

[0:46:28] Dank u wel.

[0:46:30] De volgende speaker is Mr. Nisi.

[0:46:33] En meneer Nisi zal ons in het Nederlands te woord staan.

[0:46:35] Het is al gebeurd.

[0:46:40] Graag de voorzitter, graag de leider van de Tweede Kamer.

[0:46:44] Hartelijk dank voor uw uitnodiging.

[0:46:46] Ik wil deze gelegenheid gebruiken om aandacht te vragen voor het Ahwazi volk.

[0:46:51] Voor degenen die ons niet kennen.

[0:46:54] De Ahwazi zijn Arabische volk.

[0:46:56] Volgens ons zijn er tussen 10 en 12 miljoen Arabieren.

[0:47:01] Wij leven voornamelijk in het zuidenwesten van Iran aan het hele oostenlijke kust van de Arabische Golf.

[0:47:10] Wat ik u vandaag wil meegeven is dat onze leed niet pas begon met de Islamische Republiek.

[0:47:17] De onderdrukking van Ahwazi begon al in 1925 na de val van het Arabische bestuur toen Reza Pahlavi de moderne Iranse nazistaat oprichtte.

[0:47:30] De nieuwe nazistaat werd opgericht en geleid door nationalisten zoals Reza Pahlavi.

[0:47:37] Deze nationalisten hebben volgens de Iraanse historicus Mehrdadqia de geschiedenis, cultuur, taal gebruikt om Persische nationale identiteit te creëren.

[0:47:49] Daarbij werd de werkelijkheid genegeerd dat Iran geen homogene pezische land is, maar een mozaïek van verschillende volken, talen, culturen en religies.

[0:48:01] Voor de Ahwazis had dit ingrijpende gevolgen.

[0:48:05] Onder de Pahlavis werden onze politieke leiders gearresteerd en opgehangen.

[0:48:11] Veel Arabische stammen werden uit elkaar gehaald en bijeenkomsten werden verboden.

[0:48:17] Het gebruiken van Arabische taal op school en drukwerk werd verboden.

[0:48:22] Arabische plaatsnamen werden vervangen door de Persische namen en onze cultuur werd stap voor stap teruggedrongen.

[0:48:29] Ook economisch werden wij zwaar getroffen.

[0:48:32] Het land van de Arabische families werd onteigen.

[0:48:36] Hoge belastingen werden opgelegd.

[0:48:39] En buren werden gedwongen in het grootste deel van hun oogst aan de stad af te staan.

[0:48:48] Er wordt vaak gezegd dat Iran een rijke olieland is, maar bijna nooit wordt vermeld dat meer dan 85% van de Iraanse olie uit Al-Ahwas komt.

[0:49:02] Ook strategisch gezien zijn wij als Ahwazi Arabieren van belang voor Europa.

[0:49:08] Veel van deze praktijken worden onder de huidige Iranse regime voortgezet.

[0:49:13] Het milieu raakt ernstig vervuild, gezien de verliezen hun land en Arabieren worden direct en indirect uit hun leefgebied verdervijnd.

[0:49:26] Demografische veranderingen worden actief gestimuleerd, waardoor de oorspronkelijke bevolking steeds verder wordt verdrongen.

[0:49:35] Daarnaast worden Sunnitische Arabieren, Mandai, gediscrimineerd.

[0:49:40] Ahwazische vrouwen worden bovendien dubbel getroffen als vrouw en als lid van een volk dat zijn nationale en culturele rechten worden ontzegd.

[0:49:50] De coördinatierad van de Ahwazi organisatie is ervan overtuigd dat een stabiele en vreedzame toekomst voor Iran alleen mogelijk is wanneer alle volkeren gelijkwaardig worden behandeld en hun rechten worden erkend.

[0:50:10] De afgelopen honderd jaar hebben aangetoond dat het ontkennen van de rechten van niet-Persische volkeren niet tot stabiliteit heeft geleid, maar juist tot blijvende spanningen.

[0:50:24] Dames en heren, ik sluit af met twee verzoeken.

[0:50:28] 1.

[0:50:28] Neem de rechten van de niet-Persische volkeren mee in de iedere discussie over de toekomst van Iran.

[0:50:35] Twee, ga regelmatig in gesprek met vertegenwoordigers van de niet-Persische volkeren.

[0:50:42] Zonder hun deelname is geen doelzame oplossing mogelijk.

[0:50:47] Wij vragen geen voorrechten, maar respect voor onze fundamentele rechten en onze recht op zelfbeschikking zoals erkend in het internationale recht.

[0:51:01] Wie de toekomst van Iran bespreekt, zonder de niet-Persische volkeren, laat een wijzelijke deel van het hele land buiten beschouwing.

[0:51:14] Hartelijk dank voor uw aandacht.

[0:51:17] Dank u wel, meneer Nessie.

[0:51:19] Now we proceed with Mrs.

[0:51:20] Sahin.

[0:51:24] Thank you, sir.

[0:51:25] Ik zal ook Nederlands spreken.

[0:51:28] Geachte Leiden van de Tweede Kamer, dames en heren.

[0:51:33] Hartelijk dank voor uw uitnodigen om vandaag hier aanwezig te zijn.

[0:51:40] Mijn naam is Theo Manschein.

[0:51:43] Vandaag spreken ik tot u als Politik-Aktivist en Pleit-Besorger voor de Nationaltn.

[0:51:53] ...van de fondamentale rechten van de Azerbaïdjanen in Iran.

[0:51:59] Ik ben hier om de stemmen te laten horen van millionen mensen die al tientallen jaren verstopken zijn van hun fondamentale rechten.

[0:52:13] Dames en heren.

[0:52:15] Iran is een land met een rijke etnische, kulturele en talkende diversiteit.

[0:52:26] Geen enkel bevolkingsgroepformet en absolute meertheid.

[0:52:33] Azerbeidsjanen, Kurden, Balutschen, Arabieren, Turkmennen en andere volken hebben eeuwenlang

[0:52:42] gezamenlijk bijgedragen aan de geschiedeniskultuur en ontvlieg van Iran.

[0:52:54] De Azerbeidzjanen behoren tot de grote nationale gemeenschappen van het land en hebben een belangrijke rol gespeeld in de politiek.

[0:53:10] economisch en maatschappen ontwikkelen van Iran.

[0:53:18] In het nootwesten van Iran rond de Khazarzee zijn als Azerbeidzjanen en andere Turkstalige volken de grote meerderheid.

[0:53:37] Toch werden zij

[0:53:39] al bijna een eeuw geconfronteerd met centrality, diskriminatie en geefongen assimilatie.

[0:53:51] In het collectief gehogan van de Azerbeidzjanen starten een periode, niet alleen symbool voor een strijk,

[0:54:02] geschiedenis staat, maar ook voor de onderdrukking van hun nationaal identiteit.

[0:54:18] Miljoenen Azerbeidsjaanse kinderen kunnen nog steeds geen onderwijs volgen in hun moedertaal.

[0:54:28] Wij zijn ervan overtuigd dat de

[0:54:33] ...toekomst van Iran niet gebouwd... ...kan wordt op de... ...voorzeggen van... ...van religieuze... ...dictatoren.

[0:54:48] En democratie... ...toekomst is alleen... ...mogelijk wanneer... ...het recht op... ...zelfwisking... ...van volk... ...voldig wordt... ...erkend.

[0:55:04] Wij vragen om een Iran dat gebaseerd op vrijheid, democratie, mensenrechten, gelegenheid en de rechtsheid en respect voor de nationale en collectieve diversiteit.

[0:55:30] bestaat niet alleen de aandacht van het nucleaire dossier of de vliegteogestjes rond Iran.

[0:55:43] Wat kunt u doen?

[0:55:47] Ten eerste is het van grote belang om de beweging die de medelheid Persisch zijn duidelijk te maken dat dat zo een

[0:56:00] Kompers moeten sluiten met de niet-persist.

[0:56:05] Wij vragen Europa niet om de toekomst van Iran te bepalen.

[0:56:13] Wij geloven dat alleen vrijheid, rechtvaardigheid, geleid en het recht op zelfbescherming kunnen leiden tot een verzaamheid

[0:56:31] Dank u wel.

[0:56:34] Dank u wel.

[0:56:39] Dan is er nu de mogelijkheid voor de members van de parlementen om vragen te vragen.

[0:56:50] Ik zou zou zeggen dat voor de eerste twee parlementen, als u vragen hebt, vragen ze in Engels.

[0:56:56] En voor de andere parlementen, we switchen naar Dutch.

[0:56:59] Oké, meneer Seder.

[0:57:00] Oké, thank you.

[0:57:02] Thank you so much for your contribution.

[0:57:06] I was wondering how the EU could help in the next phase in ensuring that the communities which you described and which you're representing could have a viable and sustainable future.

[0:57:23] What should the EU do also in light of the current geopolitical situation?

[0:57:27] This question...

[0:57:30] I would like to ask to the one that would like to answer, because I feel kind of troubled asking one of the specific groups, knowing that you also represent a specific community.

[0:57:39] So the person that would like to answer, I would give them the floor.

[0:57:43] We collect the questions.

[0:57:45] Miss Maas.

[0:57:47] Dank u voorzitter.

[0:57:48] Ja, ik ga mijn vraag in het Nederlands stellen.

[0:57:49] Ik had een vraag aan de heer Nisi, maar misschien ook aan mevrouw Eskandari.

[0:57:56] Ik hoor u beide veel zeggen over de minderheidsgroeperingen die er zijn in Iran.

[0:58:01] Die zijn natuurlijk hele grote groepen.

[0:58:03] In een situatie waarin Iran op een zeker moment in de toekomst mogelijk wel een democratische transitie doorgaat, hoe ziet u dan die rol van die minderheden?

[0:58:15] De rol, maar ook hun positie?

[0:58:24] Ja, dank voorzitter.

[0:58:26] En ik ga mijn vraag ook in Nederland stellen.

[0:58:28] Ik stel mijn vraag aan mevrouw Sergai, als dat mag.

[0:58:33] Wat vindt u ervan dat er vandaag maar één speaker was eigenlijk die...

[0:58:38] Dan moet je uiteindelijk zijn.

[0:58:42] Ik wil uiteindelijk zijn.

[0:58:44] Ik wil uiteindelijk zijn de volgende vraag.

[0:58:46] Wat is uw vies op het feest dat er alleen maar een speaker is geweest... ...die is in een panel, publiek en transparant.

[0:58:53] En doel je dat het een attitude matcht... ...dat is een partij van een democratische oppositie?

[0:59:01] Meneer Elian.

[0:59:04] Dank u, meneer Chair.

[0:59:05] Dank u wel.

[0:59:15] Ik begin met u.

[0:59:21] Meneer Sjager.

[0:59:34] En als jullie allemaal kan je telefoon veranderen, dat zou heel erg helpen zijn.

[0:59:41] Thank you for the questions.

[0:59:43] So I'm going to be brief about all of them.

[0:59:45] What can EU do?

[0:59:47] We actually have a plan which we are talking to different EU governments about it.

[0:59:53] We have a conversation, we have conversations with specifically the Irish government who's going to get the heading the EU Commission from July.

[1:00:04] Die idee is, de only pass-forward voor Iran is door een democratic, national-dialog proces.

[1:00:13] Dat moet door internationaal support worden, want Iran is geopolitisch situatief in een manier...

[1:00:20] dat we so many forces trying to meddle with the civil society in Iran.

[1:00:24] This is not a new thing, it's been going on for centuries, we have to say.

[1:00:28] But there is a way to do it, and that's building a coalition of different governments, not just the EU, reaching out to global majority governments as well as the EU governments, and creating these buffers around the Iranian civil society to protect us from meddling from outside, so we can

[1:00:48] Decide for our own future.

[1:00:50] We can sit at the same table with the people who are refusing to talk to us down the line and carving our own future through the national dialogue process.

[1:01:00] That's going to take a lot of technical support.

[1:01:03] There's a lot of technical understanding within the failure of different processes of national dialogue all around the world.

[1:01:11] I'll give you an example of Yemeni's government and Yemeni's national dialogue.

[1:01:14] What happened the day after?

[1:01:16] That was a fantastic national dialogue day, conference, that was designed by the UN, but then the meddling of other governments collapsed that national dialogue the day after.

[1:01:27] So we want to protect ourselves from that kind of failures

[1:01:31] We're creating mechanisms that help us through that.

[1:01:34] In terms of how to get rid of the IRGC, I would say I was saying that and a lot of other academics and people who studied Iran were saying that before the war.

[1:01:46] War is not going to bring down the IRGC and the Iranian government.

[1:01:50] Why?

[1:01:51] Because it's a decentralized network.

[1:01:53] It's not a hierarchical government.

[1:01:56] Yes, there is a hierarchy on the top.

[1:01:59] There is a ruling class that is ruling the society.

[1:02:02] But when you look at how IRGC went through creating its network of corruption, which I studied for some years and done investigative report on it,

[1:02:12] Het is een decentralisee network dat heeft deze nodes, die de orders van de top zijn.

[1:02:19] Maar ze hebben de autonomie om te maken van hun eigen nodig te maken.

[1:02:24] En dan nu we hebben de dividee tussen 31 provinces.

[1:02:28] Dus even als er een ground war, die ik denk dat Trump is bezig voor dat, en de islamische republiek is,

[1:02:36] ...preparing itself for that.

[1:02:39] Even with that land invasion down the line... ...the Islamic Republic is not going to go away easily.

[1:02:46] And we're going to see a long-lasting war in the region.

[1:02:50] There's going to be a lot of instability.

[1:02:52] And that's why it's more important than ever to prepare for that.

[1:02:56] To help the Iranian civil society to create collaboration, cooperation...

[1:03:01] Creates unity in Iran and create a path towards a democratic future.

[1:03:07] That's going to take time.

[1:03:08] It's not easy.

[1:03:09] There's no one easy solution for it.

[1:03:11] And anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

[1:03:15] The other thing is, you know, elephant in the room.

[1:03:18] Why not speaking to us?

[1:03:20] I think I have the experience and the privilege of interviewing him.

[1:03:25] Some years ago is more than 15 years ago.

[1:03:28] And even back then when he was framing himself as a human rights activist, he was using a language which was quite unconscious.

[1:03:37] He was calling us as his citizens in his language.

[1:03:42] And I was like challenging him on that.

[1:03:44] I was a young TV presenter wanting to make, you know, name for myself.

[1:03:48] And I was like pushing and pushing and asking, why are you calling us your citizens?

[1:03:52] En sinds dan... ...he refused giving interviews... ...to BBC Platform... ...just because I challenged him on that day.

[1:04:00] I think that tells you enough.

[1:04:03] Thank you.

[1:04:04] I think the next question was... ...de volgende vraag was voor mevrouw Eskander.

[1:04:14] Het ging over de minderheden, toch?

[1:04:18] Ja, wat moeten ze doen?

[1:04:20] Het gaat om...

[1:04:23] Op het moment dat je het over de minderheden hebt en hoe, zouden zij gefaliciteerd moeten worden?

[1:04:29] Ik zou willen zeggen, en dan terugkomend op het eerste panel, waarin werd gezegd, je pakt de grote groeperingen en de minderheden zijn te klein, die neem je eigenlijk niet mee in de overweging.

[1:04:38] Dan neem je dus niet de hele beschaving mee in een overweging.

[1:04:42] Op het moment dat je wil dat er een vrij democratisch Iran komt, dan spreek je met iedereen vooraf.

[1:04:47] En zie je waar de belangen samenkomen.

[1:04:50] En wat je heel erg merkt is, heel veel mensen durven zich ook niet uit te spreken.

[1:04:54] Laat ik dat dan op dit moment met jullie delen.

[1:04:56] Jullie hebben net het vertoon gezien.

[1:04:58] Dit is niet iets unieks.

[1:05:01] De pahlavisten inmiddels, bekend als term, zijn behoorlijk agressief.

[1:05:06] Waardoor bepaalde minderheden zich niet eens durven uit te spreken.

[1:05:10] Er is een hele grote groep...

[1:05:12] die ik net benoemde als politiek dakloos, die wel wat willen zeggen, maar door de repressie of door de angst het niet eens aandurven om het gesprek aan te gaan op dit moment.

[1:05:20] Dus wat ik vraag is dat er misschien een safe space wordt gecreëerd vanuit de Tweede Kamer.

[1:05:25] Dat er gesprekken komen, ook met deze groeperingen, eventueel één op één of in kleine recessies, waar ze niet zichzelf hoeven te tonen.

[1:05:33] Want daar zit een bepaalde angst.

[1:05:35] Ik zie de antwoord van de andere kant.

[1:05:44] Ik zie dat er geen duurzame stabiliteit zal zijn in Iran of in de golfregio zolang de legitieme en historische rechten van de volkeren, die al bijna 1 eeuw worden ontkend, niet worden erkend.

[1:06:03] De erkenning van deze rechten is niet alleen van belang voor de verde en stabiliteit in de regio, maar ook voor de energiezekerheid en energievoorziening naar Europa of naar de rest van de wereld.

[1:06:24] Dank u wel.

[1:06:25] Meneer Sahin, misschien wilt u nog iets toevoegen in deze tweede ronde?

[1:06:38] In Dutch or English?

[1:06:58] Ja, dat is goed.

[1:07:30] Het overgrote deel kwam overheen, maar wat hij nog benadrukt is, op het moment dat we uitsluiten en dus niet alle minderheden horen, door labels aan te plakken, dan krijg je geen duurzaam alternatief en een toekomst.

[1:07:42] Want dat is gewoon nodig om iedereen gehoord te hebben.

[1:07:45] En we moeten stoppen met labels plakken op mensen als separatisten, want het is ook het volk van Iran.

[1:07:52] Dank u wel.

[1:07:53] Dank u wel voor het vertalen.

[1:07:55] Mr. Ola, would you like to add something to the discussion?

[1:07:59] thank you for the question is that what you can do for because Iran is a multinational state of ethnics languages culture

[1:08:16] It is not a single unity, identity, culture, state.

[1:08:24] There you have Kurds, Arab and Baloch and other.

[1:08:29] Here you are saying that minority, no, they are a big nation, not a small one.

[1:08:33] Arabs, Kurds, they are a big nation.

[1:08:36] They should not be regarded as ethnic.

[1:08:39] Therefore, if you want Iran to be...

[1:08:43] a democratic plural state, then it should be a federation of nations.

[1:08:53] Without representation of these other nations, non-Parsian nations, Iran will not, I mean, be a normal state, I think.

[1:09:06] If you want to see Iran to be a normal state, then the identity, the existence of non-Parsian people should also be recognized.

[1:09:19] I think so.

[1:09:21] Ik schors de vergadering voor vijf minuten omdat we de techniek even op orde moeten brengen voor de videoverbinding.

[1:09:50] Is it adjourned?

[1:20:37] Mr. Mochtadi, kan je ons heer?

[1:20:43] Mr. Mochtadi?

[1:20:46] Yes, yes, hello.

[1:20:47] Yes, perfect.

[1:20:49] So, excuse us for the technical problems on our side.

[1:20:56] Thank you for being here.

[1:20:58] I would like to give you the floor to give an introduction of seven minutes.

[1:21:02] So, Mr. Mochtadi, please, go ahead.

[1:21:09] Yes, thank you.

[1:21:10] Honorable members of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Dutch House of Representatives, dear Mr. Jesse Klava, dear Ms.

[1:21:19] Katipiri, honorable members of the Dutch Parliament, ladies and gentlemen.

[1:21:25] First of all, I would like to express my sincere gratitude for the invitation to earlier before the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Dutch Parliament

[1:21:37] I am truly grateful for the opportunity to address the committee, and I am pleased and honoured to be here today.

[1:21:46] Dear friends, the war between the United States and Israel with Iran has for months placed Iran at the centre of global attention, from the media to think tanks to parliaments and governments.

[1:22:04] Given the scale of the conflict and its impact, that's only natural.

[1:22:10] But we should not forget what has come before and what has even been the greater cause of suffering, death and destruction during long, dark years of the ruling regime in Iran.

[1:22:28] Back in January, the regime carried out a brutal crackdown and mass killing of protesters who had taken to the streets to protest worsening economic conditions, corruption and authoritarian rule.

[1:22:44] Thousands and probably tens of thousands were killed by the Islamic regime's security forces.

[1:22:55] Three years earlier, we had the Women Life Freedom Movement, during which Kurdistan emerged as the leading force behind the broadest and most enduring and probably the most progressive movement for political change in Iran.

[1:23:14] That peaceful movement was also brutally crushed and drowned in blood.

[1:23:21] The point is,

[1:23:23] However impactful the current war is, and however significant its domestic and regional consequences may be, it is not and has not been the single defining conflict in Iran.

[1:23:39] For years, Iranian society has been locked in a relentless struggle for change, for basic rights, freedom, human dignity, and the chance to live in peace.

[1:23:53] against the ruthless, corrupt and adventurous regime.

[1:24:00] Take Kurdistan as one example.

[1:24:03] The violent repression of the Kurdish people began just five weeks after the victory of the Islamic Revolution in 1979, when government forces unleashed waves of gunfire in the protesting city of Sanandaj.

[1:24:22] A few months later, without any justification Khomeini declared the jihad against the people of Kurdistan, denouncing them as infidels and launching a war of repression that has now continued for nearly five decades.

[1:24:40] In short, the Islamic Republic's war against its own people

[1:24:45] against Kurds, Balochis, Turkmens, and Arabs, against women, labor unions, students, journalists, the Baha'i community, and many others began years, even decades before any foreign conflict.

[1:25:04] It began before the seizure of the U.S.

[1:25:07] Embassy in Tehran, before the Iran-Iraq war,

[1:25:12] before Iran's proxy wars across the region and long before the recent conflict with Israel and the United States.

[1:25:21] The domestic conflict has never ceased.

[1:25:25] There has been no memorandum of understanding between the regime and the people and the ruling regime is not willing to sign a ceasefire agreement with its own people.

[1:25:40] That is why we urge Europe and indeed the world not to let the Iranian people's struggle for freedom, justice and basic human rights, as well as the Kurdish people's legitimate struggle for freedom to be overshadowed by any disagreements with the United States or any criticism of Israel you might have.

[1:26:09] We call on you to clearly condemn and isolate the Iranian regime for its heinous crimes and to stand with the people of Kurdistan and all the people of Iran in their fight against ethnic, linguistic and religious discrimination and in their pursuit of freedom, democracy, basic human rights.

[1:26:34] That is in the best interest of the people of Iran

[1:26:39] de whole region and the international community.

[1:26:42] Thank you very much.

[1:26:45] Thank you so much, Mr. Mokhtadi.

[1:26:47] And I would like to give the floor for the first question to Mr. Seder.

[1:26:50] Dank u wel, mijn name is Dan Sieter, member van de Parlement voor de Christiane Union.

[1:26:54] Dank u wel voor de tijd om ons te spreken.

[1:26:58] Ik heb een vraag over de rol van de Europese Union.

[1:27:02] Zoals we weten, de laatste paar maanden zijn heel erg slecht, ook voor de iranische mensen.

[1:27:09] Mr. Mochtadi, we collect some of the questions.

[1:27:20] So, first we go to Ms.

[1:27:24] Maas for your question.

[1:27:32] Thank you very much for your introduction.

[1:27:35] You mentioned that we, or the world, need to isolate the Iranian regime.

[1:27:43] Do you have any ideas on how we can do that?

[1:27:46] Because also this afternoon we heard, for example, that sanctions might not be so effective and might be symbolic.

[1:27:53] So I wonder what you think would be a good way to isolate the regime.

[1:27:59] Mr. Ariel.

[1:28:01] Dank u wel voor ons spreken, meneer Mohdadi.

[1:28:05] Hoe ziet u, als we allemaal in deze ferocious fight tegen het regime, hoe ziet u de future van Iran en hoe ziet u de position van de Kurdische mensen in een nieuwe Iran?

[1:28:23] Dank u, chair, en dank u voor uw introductie voor uw remarks.

[1:28:30] Er is veel vragen, dus laat ik u een andere vraag vragen.

[1:28:32] In uw remarks u zei dat de situatie van de Kurdish mensen en andere minorieren... ...hebben heel erg, zeer.

[1:28:40] Er is cultuurlijk, religieelijke persecutie.

[1:28:44] En dit is niet alleen in de islamische regie, maar het is ook al.

[1:28:48] Dus ik was wondering of u kunt zeggen wat meer over dat en hoe we kunnen insure...

[1:28:52] dat hun rights zijn in een democratische grond in de future.

[1:28:57] Dank u, Miss Abdi.

[1:28:59] Mr Mokhtadi, please.

[1:29:04] To begin met, bedankt voor uw vragen en uw vragen.

[1:29:12] As I told you, as everybody knows, that in January, there was kind of massacres in Tehran and big cities in Iran.

[1:29:21] And it was time, it was time for the Europeans, for the international community to at least call their ambassadors in Iran.

[1:29:35] en maken grote protesten tegen het iranian regime.

[1:29:42] We hebben geen zo'n idee.

[1:29:45] Dus ik denk dat de diplomatie isolatie is één manier.

[1:29:52] Het maken met de iranian civil society en de iranian politische partijen.

[1:30:06] is done and other are very important so these are the putting pressure on the iranian regime diplomatically and also how can i say open the open doors

[1:30:27] of negotiation and engagement with the Iranian opposition, democratic opposition, ethnic groups, civil society is the way that I suggest for the time being.

[1:30:41] As for the future of Iran, I think if Iran or when Iran is a democratic country, we think

[1:30:50] That the rights of the Kurdish people as well as other ethnic minorities must be acknowledged and preserved by the new constitution of Iran.

[1:31:01] That's a very brief answer.

[1:31:10] Anything I should add?

[1:31:12] Any new questions or questions I didn't answer?

[1:31:15] Let me check if all the questions are answered or are there any more questions?

[1:31:20] Mr. Seyder?

[1:31:21] Thank you so much.

[1:31:23] You responded to my question a few months ago.

[1:31:27] If I can paraphrase that, the diplomatic ties should have been cut or at least more intensified pressure than the countries or the parliaments did.

[1:31:39] Meneer Mochtari.

[1:32:05] It has been a kind of understanding or viewpoint by the Europeans that by dealing with Iran diplomatically and commercially in trade and diplomacy, you can have an impact on the Iranian regime, make them milder, more moderate, and eventually you will have a moderate regime that is a normal situation.

[1:32:35] And you can deal with, like every other government, with weak points and strong points.

[1:32:43] But that isn't the case in Iran.

[1:32:47] Time and again, the Iranian regime has shown the world that they are not ready to compromise.

[1:32:55] They are anti-West.

[1:32:58] They are anti-American, anti-Israel, anti-Europe.

[1:33:03] They want to annihilate Israel.

[1:33:06] They want to destabilise the Arab countries and overthrow them.

[1:33:13] They are seeking a new Shiite empire in the region.

[1:33:19] They're seeking Germany.

[1:33:22] As you saw during the wars, they struck the different countries, their bases, their refineries.

[1:33:33] Their residential areas, their business areas.

[1:33:39] So this is the kind of regime that you see in Iran.

[1:33:46] I have no sign, I can see no sign of any change for the better in the new.

[1:33:53] of in the new rank of the regime, the new leaders of the Islamic regime in Tehran.

[1:33:59] So I think it has to be more political and economic pressure, more diplomatic pressure, and more engagement with the Iranian people, both its political parties and its civil society.

[1:34:19] And another problem with Europeans is that they have some probably justified criticisms of the policies of the United States administration.

[1:34:37] But this doesn't mean that you have to be more lenient towards Iran.

[1:34:45] They have committed heinous crimes, and they will do so in the future.

[1:34:52] They will suppress their people more than before, and they will try to make new gains against the United States, Europe.

[1:35:07] They are choking the Strait of Hormuz.

[1:35:11] Dus je kan niet met ze als een normaal land, als een normaal governement.

[1:35:22] Dank u, Mr. Mokhtladi.

[1:35:24] Miss Maas.

[1:35:25] De freedom movement in Iran is openly the way I think.

[1:35:29] All right.

[1:35:29] Miss Maas.

[1:35:30] Thank you very much.

[1:35:33] I'm puzzled a little bit by what you say about diplomatic isolation and at the same time open the doors for civil society.

[1:35:42] Just to clarify, what exactly do you mean with diplomatic isolation?

[1:35:50] And in my opinion, you can only open the doors to civil society if you have people on the ground being able to talk to the civil society.

[1:35:59] Because as we heard already in part two of this session, is that you really need to talk to the people there to make a change.

[1:36:09] How do you look at that?

[1:36:11] Mr. Mortari.

[1:36:15] You have people there and you have people outside.

[1:36:18] For example, you have the biggest teachers' union in Iran for years.

[1:36:24] They're still alive.

[1:36:27] And they're fighting for their rights in the society.

[1:36:31] We have very famous political prisoners inside Iran.

[1:36:36] And also we have political parties.

[1:36:38] We have political entities.

[1:36:40] outside the country with deep roots in the society.

[1:36:46] Our party, for example, or Kurdish parties in general have deep roots in the society.

[1:36:52] They have, it's just the tip of the iceberg that you see.

[1:36:56] Their headquarters probably is outside, some elements are outside, but the main body of our activities are inside the country.

[1:37:07] And we have been,

[1:37:10] manage, organise a coalition of Kurdish parties in recent months.

[1:37:16] This is just one example.

[1:37:18] The Freedom Congress of Iran is another example.

[1:37:23] It was a very, it is a very democratic, widespread, diverse combination or coalition of the

[1:37:32] democratic, both civil societies, human rights activists and organisations, and political parties, women activists, teachers activists, student activists, all kinds of people, ethnic groups.

[1:37:49] So there are people for you to take into account.

[1:37:59] Thank you.

[1:38:00] Mr Elion.

[1:38:02] Meneer Mochtari.

[1:38:31] Well, Kurds have a population of at least 10 million people out of 90 million people, the whole population of Iran.

[1:38:40] They live in four provinces in northwestern and western Iran with some adjacent pockets of Kurdish communities.

[1:38:54] We have a huge community, Kurdish community in Tehran and all that.

[1:38:57] We have Kurdish communities in the eastern part of Iran.

[1:39:01] So, wat we are talking about first is a new Iran...

[1:39:09] In our opinion, if it is supposed to be expected to be a democratic one, it has to be a decentralised country with the recognition of the rights of ethnic groups.

[1:39:34] Iran is a multi-ethnic, multi-nationality group.

[1:39:39] with Kurds, Azeris, Balochis, Arabs, Turkmen, en anderen.

[1:39:45] So we think that a federal system is best for Iran.

[1:39:52] The Kurdish parties and their coalition has announced time and again that they are not separatists.

[1:40:00] They are seeking their rights within the framework of the Iranian society and Iran as a country.

[1:40:09] Thank you.

[1:40:11] Ms Abdi, please.

[1:40:12] Meneer Mokhtadi, de vloer is jouw.

[1:40:51] Ik schorst de vergadering voor enkele ogenblikken.

[1:41:20] Gaan we even naar de techniek kijken.

[1:41:23] Dit is een rondetafelgesprek met hindernissen.

[1:42:06] ***

[1:44:31] De sound is on.

[1:44:33] En ik zeg... Ah, Mr. Mokhtadi.

[1:44:36] Welkom terug.

[1:44:37] Yes.

[1:44:37] Welkom terug.

[1:44:38] Thank you.

[1:44:39] It's good to have you back.

[1:44:41] Maybe you could... You were talking, but we haven't heard anything.

[1:44:45] So maybe you could start your answer on the question of Ms.

[1:44:48] Abdi from the beginning.

[1:44:50] Mr. Mokhtadi, the floor is yours.

[1:44:54] Thank you.

[1:44:54] What I was saying was that...

[1:44:59] Iran is a multiethnic, multinationale country, multireligious country.

[1:45:04] It's a diverse country.

[1:45:05] It's a remnant of an ancient and medieval empire.

[1:45:11] So we have different languages, different religions, different ethnic groups.

[1:45:17] The best way for these different communities to live in peace together

[1:45:24] is a federal democratic system where the rights of every community, their cultural and political and administrative rights are acknowledged and preserved by the Constitution.

[1:45:39] And that is a federal system.

[1:45:41] The Iranian political parties, the coalition of Iranian political parties, which we managed to build a few months ago, has openly declared

[1:45:55] dat ze geen separatisten zijn.

[1:45:57] Ze willen een democratische Iran.

[1:46:00] En ze willen hun rechts in het land van Iran gaan.

[1:46:07] Heb je het gehoord?

[1:46:08] Ja, luid en clear.

[1:46:11] Dank je wel.

[1:46:12] Ik wil je de mogelijkheid geven...

[1:46:16] Ik laat me kijken of er nog vragen zijn.

[1:46:20] Ja, meneer Maas.

[1:46:23] Thank you very much.

[1:46:24] Yes, you're very clear that you would like to have a decentralised Iran in the future.

[1:46:31] Could you imagine Iran to be a centralised state?

[1:46:35] I mean, if you look at, for example, France, maybe a good example...

[1:46:39] Also, big country, centralized government.

[1:46:44] Could you imagine Iran also being centralized and then maybe divided in provinces, where provinces, just like in the Netherlands, do have some kind of self-government, but not being the central government?

[1:47:00] Especially given the fact that you are focusing so much on these federals.

[1:47:06] maar ook in het licht van de minorieren die in Iran zijn.

[1:47:13] Mr. Mokhtari.

[1:47:17] Ja, zelfs de Europese countries waren meer centraliseerd.

[1:47:22] Frans is een klare voorbeeld van dat.

[1:47:27] Maar in Frans, je hebt niet, zoals ik weet, ik ben niet een expert op dat, je hebt niet zo veel verschillende langages.

[1:47:34] Je hebt niet zo veel...

[1:47:36] Different peoples, different religions, different languages.

[1:47:43] Each people with its own land, with its own history, with its own culture.

[1:47:49] So you have to do something about it.

[1:47:53] And the level of national and cultural consciousness, the identity that people...

[1:48:04] connects people together is more powerful than before, than even a few decades ago.

[1:48:13] So you have countries like Canada, like Spain, even like Italy, north of Italy.

[1:48:25] You have the German-speaking people, and they have their own rights.

[1:48:28] They're kind of...

[1:48:29] of self-rule or internal autonomy.

[1:48:36] Why is it wrong for Iran to have that, while Iran is ripe for that?

[1:48:59] Helaas treedt er weer een verstoring op in de verbinding en de tijd is nu heel kort.

[1:49:05] Dus anders kan meneer Mochtadi, komt er misschien in en dan kunnen we afschrijven.

[1:49:09] We zullen zorgen dat we netjes de heer Mochtadi zullen bedanken voor zijn bijdrage.

[1:49:15] Maar daarbij sluit ik dit deel van de ronde tafel af.

[1:49:20] Ik wil graag alle aanwezigen hier hartelijk bedanken voor hun aanwezigheid.

[1:49:26] Het volgende deel, het is al een paar keer gememoreerd, zal in beslotenheid plaatsvinden.

[1:49:30] Daarom zal ik de bodes vragen om de zaal, ga ik even schorsen, dan wordt u gevraagd de zaal te verlaten.