Andrius Kubilius, Eurocommissaris voor Defensie en Ruimtevaart

[0:00:00] Goedemorgen.

[0:00:04] Ik open de vergadering.

[0:00:05] Vandaag hebben wij de eer om de Eurocommissaris voor Defensie in Ruimtevoorvaart, Andreas Kobilius in de Tweede Kamer, te ontvangen voor een gedachtenwisseling met de Commissie Defensies.

[0:00:15] I will now switch to English.

[0:00:17] Commissioner Kobiliuss, it's a pleasure to welcome you to the House of the Representative of the Netherlands.

[0:00:22] Allow me to briefly introduce the members participating in today's exchange.

[0:00:27] It's Michelle Jachtenberg from D66.

[0:00:30] Peter de Groot from the People's Party from Freedom and Democracy.

[0:00:34] Maas van Landschot from The Christian Democratic Appeal.

[0:00:38] Let's see Tamara van Hoven from Groep Markeshauer.

[0:00:42] And Miss Belheers from Democrat 66 as well.

[0:00:48] Oh, and excuse me, I forgot Mr. Bolhuis from Progressive Netherlands.

[0:00:53] We're also pleased to welcome the members of your delegation.

[0:00:57] Mr. Simunas Satounas, head of cabinet Mr. Ramuna Sagnonis, member of cabinet.

[0:01:05] Lieutenant Colonel Robin Fink, defense advisor to commission president Ursula von der Leyen.

[0:01:11] And Miss Cecilia Torfin, head European Commission representation in the Netherlands.

[0:01:16] Welcome.

[0:01:17] We greatly appreciate the opportunity to exchange views with you today.

[0:01:22] Ongoing Russian aggression in Ukraine and recent warnings that Russia may seek to test European unity through hybrid attacks underline once more the importance and urgency of our discussion.

[0:01:33] And our committee has taken a particularly active interest in European defence policy.

[0:01:39] Members of this committee currently serve as parliamentary rapporteurs on two important themes.

[0:01:45] European military capabilities and the European defence industry.

[0:01:49] In addition, the committee is conducting a parliamentary study on military mobility.

[0:01:55] We will begin today's discussion with your opening remarks, after which we will engage in a discussion with the committee members.

[0:02:02] Commissioner, thank you again once again for joining us in The Hague and the floor is yours.

[0:02:09] Well, thanks a lot, Mr. Chair, members of committee, dear participants.

[0:02:17] Really, it's a big pleasure and honor to participate in this open discussion.

[0:02:23] Really we're admiring what the Netherlands are doing in general in defense and in support of Ukraine.

[0:02:28] So that's why I was very much keen to come and to have this open discussions.

[0:02:34] Now, the challenge is that defense now with all the developments in all the different areas covers so much of different topics that you know it's very difficult to, how do you say, to try to cover everything.

[0:02:50] So I will perhaps leave some topics for your questions if there will be interest but well I'm always saying that

[0:03:00] ...definitelijk onze major topik we can call defense readiness of Europe in order to be ready and to deter possibility of Russian aggression.

[0:03:09] But when I am talking about defense readiness, I'm always saying that there are three major pillars of that defense readiness.

[0:03:16] Just for structural, more rational discussions.

[0:03:22] So the first pillar is what I call material defense readiness...

[0:03:27] everything wat is related with investments into defense, production, procurement, even legal environment, how we are doing that, but everything what is very practical.

[0:03:42] Second pillar, I call it institutional defense readiness.

[0:03:50] How we are organizing ourselves in Europe, how to become more united and how really to take that responsibility which our transatlantic partners are asking us to take primary responsibility for

[0:03:57] ...conventional European defense, with NATO's 3-0 concept, and so on, which really, in my view, demands quite a lot of rethinking about all the defense architecture on the European continent.

[0:04:09] And those discussions also started moving ahead, and the last commission president's statement about the need of European Security Council, this is again from that topic.

[0:04:21] And the last pillar, in this division...

[0:04:26] I call it political defense readiness.

[0:04:28] How we should keep our political will to defend ourselves when that will is very heavily attacked by our adversaries hybrid attacks.

[0:04:38] So this is another topic.

[0:04:39] Now, and definitely besides such kind of structural description of what does it mean, our defense readiness, definitely here stands in some way interrelated.

[0:04:53] maar ook om een heel strategisch onderwerp te brengen.

[0:04:58] Dat is zeker heel erg related met onze vijf voorbeeldingen en wat het gaat om op de hele Europese continent.

[0:05:08] En hier, ik wil echt heel erg bedrijven om wat Nederland is doen.

[0:05:15] Ik zal niet in de details van F-16 en financiële supporten en zo on.

[0:05:21] En de hele Europa nu is heel veel te doen.

[0:05:26] Bijvoorbeeld, we zijn verantwoordelijkheid voor de Oekraïne-Support Loan.

[0:05:29] Het gaat heel erg succesfully.

[0:05:30] Dus van dat side we kunnen wel heel erg blijven met wat we manage het achieveeren.

[0:05:38] Maar de vraag is dat Ukrainiens heel clearly zeggen dat er nog steeds een gap is.

[0:05:41] Er is een deficit van meer dan € 20 miljard voor ze om

[0:05:47] really to be able to have those capabilities which they need to have in order to withstand Russian aggression, which is escalating.

[0:05:58] And we see, all of us, we see the problems with air defense and so on.

[0:06:04] And those 20, more than around 23 billion euros deficit comes first of all that some member states are not fulfilling what they promise to do on individual basis.

[0:06:16] Nederland stands outside of that issue.

[0:06:20] You are really showing great example, but we need to look how we can really talk with our member states in order to overcome this big issue.

[0:06:33] And we are in permanent contact with Ukrainian authorities, with the minister, Khmara, and so on, and we're looking how really before winter to resolve that issue."

[0:06:42] Now, as I said, it's possible to talk about institutional defense readiness for the whole hour and perhaps it will not be enough.

[0:06:54] As I said a very important statement by Commission President on the European Security Council, European Defense Union with Ukraine, United Kingdom, Norway and Canada we see in such way both topics match each other.

[0:07:09] A very important topic is Article 42.7, which relates what Commission President was speaking about, NATO analog of NATO, Article 4.

[0:07:22] We see that 42.8 and Security Emergency Protocol as part of that.

[0:07:27] We are working on that.

[0:07:29] And we can talk again hours and hours about political defense readiness and hybrid threats.

[0:07:34] which we see what problems we are facing now.

[0:07:38] But I would like really to spend my few minutes remaining on material defense readiness and very practical issues, where we are concentrating ourselves.

[0:07:51] And first of all, of course, we can say that during the last two years, quite a lot was achieved in this material defense preparedness, additional financial instruments, safe...

[0:07:59] Loans, Ukraine loans, national escape clause, production is going up in some specific areas.

[0:08:11] Ukraine support loan as I said.

[0:08:16] But still we can see also what was not achieved during those two years and that is where we...

[0:08:24] We need to concentrate our efforts.

[0:08:28] So, as I said, when we are talking about material defense readiness, very important factors are, of course, finances.

[0:08:36] I touched a little bit about that.

[0:08:38] And the Netherlands, again, are doing good.

[0:08:40] You have very clear plans how you will raise up to 3.5%.

[0:08:45] If all the member states would do that in the same way, so it's very easy to calculate that during the next 10 years,

[0:08:54] We shall have the total amount more than 6 trillion euros.

[0:09:02] So this is quite a substantial amount which will be invested into European defense.

[0:09:07] And I would remind that the European Union's next budget till 2035 will be, if Member States will support us, we ask for 130 billion euros.

[0:09:22] from national defense spending and 130 billion from EU level.

[0:09:26] So we need to understand where the power of European defense rests on national level, but we can use our European funds in a smart way how to encourage member states to do the proper job.

[0:09:43] So one factor is finances.

[0:09:46] Second is, of course, legal environment.

[0:09:48] en hoe we gaan van de tijdsregulaties, die we ontwikkeld over de laatste 30 jaar, waarover, op de permissingen, en de environmenten, en zo'n... ...to de regulaties die wat we kunnen callen de tijd van het tijd, die wij nu leven.

[0:10:12] En definitivt in alle issues related with defence, speed is of essence.

[0:10:18] And that is why we did a good job with council and with parliamentarians, and now it's voted in the parliament so-called defence readiness omnibus, or what we called simplification omnibuse.

[0:10:32] For example, according to the rules which were existing till now, in some countries...

[0:10:39] To just to get a permit, to start to build a new defense factory, it was taking four years.

[0:10:50] Not that bureaucrats were doing a bad job, but the regulation was such that to go through all the procedures it was taken four years, now we put the equal regulation for all member states.

[0:11:03] dat ordinarie permiten zouden worden gegeven door 42 dagen dagen.

[0:11:10] In de case van een excepterende complexe issue, het is 102 dagen.

[0:11:17] En silence van autoriteiten, waar ze kunnen zeggen dat ze niet zeggen, no, yes, no en no, will mean really tacit approval of, I mean, silent approval of the permit.

[0:11:33] Dus dat is gewoon een example van wat we gedaan hebben.

[0:11:38] En hier, ik ben heel erg in favor van wat jullie discussie nu.

[0:11:46] All die drie laws, perhaps, voor de defense zijn heel erg belangrijk, heel erg interessant.

[0:11:53] Er zijn countries die doen iets anders, zoals we know, Poland, France en sommige andere landen.

[0:12:00] Maar ik zou zeggen dat even looking into jouw langage en sommigen van de ideeën, ik zou niet behoorlijk zijn, als we op de Europese level zouden gaan.

[0:12:13] van je lengvig, en misschien we gaan kijken naar de next omnibus, hoe we kunnen doen wat in addition.

[0:12:26] Nu, heel praktisch, ik zou zeggen, 5 prioriets zijn heel materiaal ones.

[0:12:32] Voor ons, nu, we gaan concentreren

[0:12:36] De eerste is het EDPCIS.

[0:13:03] We started that process.

[0:13:05] Now we have, perhaps very soon, Council will approve five proposals from member states on those European defence projects of common interest, which mean pan-European projects, which one country cannot deliver.

[0:13:20] And those five are, first of all, Netherlands are leading one of them, together with...

[0:13:26] ...Croatia-Latwia Drone Defence Initiative.

[0:13:30] Now it has a very specific title, Decoder.

[0:13:35] Decoder, yeah.

[0:13:37] I don't know how to... ...why it's so called from abbreviations, but yeah, it has such a title.

[0:13:48] Second is Eastern Flank Watch.

[0:13:51] 4 frontier countries from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea.

[0:13:56] Then the next one is air defense shield, missile defense shield and space shield.

[0:14:06] En een paar eruitzies komen.

[0:14:13] We zagen dat we de member-staten, dat ze nog een beetje projekten moeten werken om die projekte te maken.

[0:14:16] Maar dat is belangrijk, want dit is de eerste keer dat we hebben ook instrumenten voor faciliteringen.

[0:14:24] Want in de vijf, en ik wil niet expanden, maar de vijn vijft is heel erg fragmented.

[0:14:32] We gozen van de treaties, die national governments hebben de prerogatie om te maken.

[0:14:41] Induces zijn erg fragmented.

[0:14:43] Dit is Draghi's report wat het spreeks over.

[0:14:46] En dat is een van de redenen waarin in Europa, tot nu, we had a very limited number of success stories to develop bigger projects.

[0:14:56] Nu we zien dat EDPCIs is een soort possibility.

[0:15:00] to have a breakthrough, and that is why it is important both from material point of view but also from, I would say from political point of views, that we can show that we are able to move.

[0:15:11] Second, very important topic, security of supply.

[0:15:15] We see really the problems in different areas of defense industrial development.

[0:15:21] We shall not resolve some very practical issues with security of supply.

[0:15:26] For example, the famous story about nitrocellulose.

[0:15:30] Nitrocellulse is the must to produce explosives.

[0:15:34] And nitro cellulose we are getting from China.

[0:15:37] I will not tell you all the chemistry or whatever why this nitrocelulose from cotton and so on is such a problematic, but this is the case.

[0:15:49] En dat is waar we kunnen niet wachten tot we zullen find de hele strategische solutionen van alle onze dependenzen op de raw materials.

[0:16:01] We gaan met dat issue van explosie.

[0:16:03] En we kunnen gebruiken Europese programen, instrumenten.

[0:16:09] Nu we exactly ready to spend 160...

[0:16:12] een million euro's voor special program on explosives, and there is a strong interest, and we hope that very soon we shall have the whole list of projects which industries will develop covering some of those problems in a significant way.

[0:16:28] So that is one thing.

[0:16:30] And I just told about nitrocellulose.

[0:16:32] But for example, we cannot build a big number of drones, so we cannot help even Ukraine.

[0:16:40] to build a big number of drones, because there is a shortage of magnet materials to produce electric vehicles.

[0:16:47] And that is why we are giving Ukraine derogations to buy Chinese vehicles, because we are not able to produce.

[0:16:58] So magnet material is another very concrete

[0:17:02] En er is een heleboel list van deze kind van problemen, die we nodig hebben.

[0:17:08] En als Europese Unie, we kunnen added value, zodat we kunnen iets doen, samen met de member-staten, met de industrie.

[0:17:15] Ik weet dat mijn tijd is rustig, maar ik heb nog een paar andere comments.

[0:17:20] Nu, second, een heel concreet, en praktisch, wat we call ever-warm facilities.

[0:17:27] In industry we need to, from one side we need industries to ramp up production of all the different weapon systems and some industries are showing good example.

[0:17:39] But there are in some cases really very specific problems with scaling up and ramping up.

[0:17:45] For example, the same production of drones.

[0:17:48] You know, Russians are producing 10 million drones now.

[0:17:52] Next year even can be more.

[0:17:54] Ukrainians are matching the same 10 million drone with our citizens and so on.

[0:17:58] In Europe we are producing 1.5 million drones.

[0:18:03] And the question is, so what should we do?

[0:18:05] How we should prepare ourselves for possibility of Russian aggression?

[0:18:09] Should we start to produce 10 million rounds on European side and should keep them in our stockpiles?

[0:18:15] En de experts zeggen dat zou een grote mistake zijn.

[0:18:20] Want drones in hun stockpijl during twee months' time zijn geworden.

[0:18:29] We weten hoe het gaat.

[0:18:30] Die Russen doen iets nieuws en dan je moet adapten.

[0:18:34] Dus de only way wat is possible to do is really...

[0:18:38] during peace time to keep producing what we are producing now 1.5 or 2 million drones but in addition to that we need to be ready if the war comes immediately to scale up production you know up to 10 million or whatever is need which means that we to ask industries to keep their production lines to keep components to keep labor force ready to scale-up

[0:19:04] Even if during peacetime they are producing, you know, much smaller amounts of the product.

[0:19:10] That means that we need to have special contracts with the industries, what we call ever warm facilities contracts, in order really, during peacetime, to keep enough of capabilities to be used during the war.

[0:19:28] You know, one additional, what is a problem?

[0:19:29] Our traditional industries are still very much concentrated on haute couture production.

[0:19:34] What industries are calling themselves.

[0:19:36] This is very technological advanced production, very expensive and very difficult to scale up.

[0:19:42] What we are learning from Ukraine, they are producing good enough production.

[0:19:46] Which is less technologically advanced, but it still hits the targets, it's safe for soldiers and it's much cheaper and it is possible to scale out.

[0:19:55] So we need to also find a way how to ship.

[0:19:58] And the last point here is in this very practical, you know, things related with defense readiness, with material defense readiness is of course integrated defense market and how to overcome all the fragmentation which we have in the market and which are an obstacle for our defense industry really both to become in the leadership of global competition but also to be able to produce much more.

[0:20:28] Besides those five, one additional very big priority for us now is logistics and military mobility.

[0:20:37] Clear additional priority.

[0:20:39] I am always repeating American General John Pershing who during the First World War while leading American troops in Europe made a very simple statement.

[0:20:49] The battles are won by infantry.

[0:20:52] The wars are won from logistics.

[0:20:55] And we have

[0:20:57] We have big, big issues here.

[0:20:58] Now we came with a military mobility package.

[0:21:03] We are discussing with the council.

[0:21:04] We're discussing with parliament.

[0:21:06] We need to keep that package ambitious.

[0:21:09] And since, again, Netherlands are leading PESCO program on military mobility, we expect that we can work together because as usual some countries want to

[0:21:47] Thank you so much, Commissioner, for these opening remarks and for sharing these clear insights and priorities on your side.

[0:21:56] I would now like to open the floor for the discussion.

[0:21:59] So, yeah, let's see how I can imagine that there are a lot of questions to the commissioner.

[0:22:06] So let's open up the floor voor dat.

[0:22:07] And let me start with Mr van Lanschout.

[0:22:10] Do we have a question to the Commissioner?

[0:22:11] Thank you, Chair.

[0:22:12] And thank you, Mr. Kobilius, for leading Defence in Europe, not only in great ideas, big visions, but also very concrete topics.

[0:22:19] On that letter, I have a question.

[0:22:21] To reduce dependencies to boost our industry, wouldn't it be an idea that for those products and components that we have European alternatives, that in the European Procurement Directive on Defence, we include a European-only clause?

[0:22:38] Thank you.

[0:22:39] Thank you.

[0:22:40] Commissioner Kobilius.

[0:22:42] Ja, let's take three questions and then I'll give the floor to you.

[0:22:46] Miss Beliars.

[0:22:48] Thank you very much, Mr. Kobilias, for your thorough explanation and introduction.

[0:22:54] I want to ask a question on something that you tapped on.

[0:23:00] That's the European Defence Architecture.

[0:23:04] So we have heard also from you, but also from...

[0:23:09] van der Leijen, over de Security Council.

[0:23:13] En er heeft ook al zijn discussies om het, hoe we het Security Council see, of het is going to be similar to the Security Council of the United Nations, like a selective core state, en dan rolling of andere member states, of it is going be, for example, the same as the Council.

[0:23:35] So, perhaps you can shed some more light about how you see this Security Council

[0:23:41] Thank you, Miss Belheers.

[0:23:42] Then I'll get to Miss Jachtenberg, Democrat 66.

[0:23:46] Thank you Chair and thank you Commissioner Kobilius for these very interesting insights and having the time to come travel to the Netherlands.

[0:23:54] I had a question on the European Space Shield.

[0:23:59] Ja, sure.

[0:24:03] So I was wondering how do you foresee the European integration of these capabilities, considering that there's quite a scattered field of capabilities currently?

[0:24:13] National capabilities, coalitions of the willing, even commercial capabilities in NATO.

[0:24:18] So how do we foresee European integration with this capacity?

[0:24:26] Commissioner Kobilius.

[0:24:30] Het is een hele goede vraag, en heel erg belangrijkste topic.

[0:24:38] Nu, aan de Europese preference in procurement.

[0:24:42] Ik bedoel dat we ons geld als moeilijk om ons geld te zetten in onze industrie.

[0:24:49] Dit is één ding.

[0:24:51] And I will not say that this is protectionism or something like that, but this is a development of one of the most important resources in general in defense.

[0:25:01] When we're talking about defense, I'm always saying that we need to understand that there are four major resources.

[0:25:10] One is material resources like weapons and so on, which you need to have in advance in your stockpiles and so forth.

[0:25:16] Second is military personnel, soldiers and so on, which is a little bit we are not as European Union, this is for member states and NATO.

[0:25:25] Third one is again military mobility and logistics, which you need to have on a high level of readiness.

[0:25:33] And the last one is defense industry.

[0:25:37] You need to help defense industry

[0:25:39] van de zon in order to maintain, to repair, to produce new things and so on.

[0:25:46] So that is why spending defense money on development of European industry is really investment into our one of the most important defense resources.

[0:26:01] Now, second, definitely procurement in Europe is, and we shall present very soon some of the revision of European regulations on procurement in defence.

[0:26:19] It has...

[0:26:21] A lot of different issues, not only about where to spend the money, but prerogative to spend on European defence industry.

[0:26:33] First of all, what we need to see is that in general procurement is part of this problem which Draghi named as fragmentation.

[0:26:49] We do not have integrated market, we do not

[0:26:52] Also in some way, integrated procurement system.

[0:26:56] And when we are looking more deeply down, we see a very clear picture.

[0:27:04] And the question is how much we can try to overcome all the problems.

[0:27:10] Because first of all, what statistics is showing?

[0:27:15] In the countries, bigger countries which have stronger defense industry,

[0:27:20] around 80% wat de primes, wat hun primes are producing is bought by national government.

[0:27:27] Wat does it mean?

[0:27:28] It means that primes aren't interested very much to innovate and to adapt to new doctrines, because they know that governments will buy whatever they are producing.

[0:27:39] That creates some problems even on the doctrinal side.

[0:27:44] That's one thing.

[0:27:45] Second, again, some countries...

[0:27:51] They are not going into public procurement at all.

[0:27:56] They are using this possibility of derogation and direct awards, using Article 346 from Treaty on Functioning of the European Union.

[0:28:06] And they are choosing this way, which is maybe more speedy, more easily.

[0:28:11] But the consequences are very simple.

[0:28:14] So we have fragmented market.

[0:28:18] en we hebben geen space voor SME's en start-ups te enteren deze markt.

[0:28:29] En dat geeft alle problemen, dat onze system is niet...

[0:28:34] Not so much dynamic and not so much innovative.

[0:28:37] Sorry for expanding a little bit out from this European preference into the whole picture of what we have with the procurement system.

[0:28:47] That will be quite a hot topic.

[0:28:50] And again, it's good that the last European Council was very strong in its language demanding that we should move in development of integrated defence market.

[0:29:03] Maar dat movement betekent heel prachtige steps forward.

[0:29:10] Het is leuk om te zeggen we moeten de integratie in het markt, maar please dan support integration of procurement, integration of intra-EU transfers, om te removeen all de obstacles en zo on en zo.

[0:29:22] Dus dat is in short.

[0:29:24] Nu European Defence Architecture en Security Council.

[0:29:30] We shall see hoe het gaat.

[0:29:33] I see that really it's important first of all what the Commission President said about the need of new institutional framework in general and also what she said before that sentence.

[0:29:52] And before that she repeated a very strong statement that we need to understand that again the doctrines, institutions and decision making which was created in Europe during peacetime

[0:30:00] which was created in Europe during peacetime is not fitting anymore all the changes which we see in our surrounding.

[0:30:10] And that is why we need to start to develop some kind of new architecture, and she proposes Security Council with Ukraine, with other European countries, which are not EU members like UK, like Norway,

[0:30:26] en even Canada.

[0:30:29] Dus dat is heel belangrijk als een breakthrough.

[0:30:34] Nu de vraag is hoe het gaat, en wat het format zal zijn.

[0:30:39] Ik zal niet uitleggen.

[0:30:40] Ik was over dat al heel veel tijdens dit jaar, met mijn eigen papers en statementen over de Security Council.

[0:30:46] Waar ik was aan de revijf een idee die was...

[0:30:53] was presented by Emmanuel Macron and Angela Merkel almost 10 years ago.

[0:30:58] That in order to have a proper platform, leadership platform, to discuss European defence issues we need to have some kind of smaller body which they called the European Security Council which could consist of E5 plus format like big

[0:31:17] van de grond van de vijfers, met de grondenhuis, en de EU en van de EU-institutioen, zoals de commissie-president, de gouverneur-presidente.

[0:31:30] Dus dat is mijn view om hoe we kunnen maken dit een beetje meer visible en... en... hoe moet je zeggen... en top-down leadership.

[0:31:45] Omdat nu in de vans...

[0:31:47] We know everything is, since this is national prerogative, more or less everything is only bottom-up.

[0:31:54] And in some cases, yes, bottom- up is very important and so on, but sometimes it's a very slow approach, you know, and especially even in material things.

[0:32:03] Sometimes it does not bring the outcome.

[0:32:05] Now what I see, you knows that Commission President Xi proposed European Security Council just with including of all the members, which...

[0:32:13] It looks like, from that sentence, more like additional something like Foreign Affairs Council or Defence Council or EUCO, you know, but with additional of several members.

[0:32:26] I see the need of both approaches.

[0:32:30] And, well, it's okay.

[0:32:32] You know, it will demand some kind of broader discussions, but I was always, when I was speaking about European Security Council, I was also always was speaking

[0:32:44] In my view, European Defence Union is some kind of institutional approach to geographical way of how to expand who we need to have in European defence in order to be much stronger.

[0:33:02] And this is a way for me, always was a way, how we can start to integrate Ukrainian defence capabilities.

[0:33:11] All their experience was our experience.

[0:33:14] Because NATO for Ukraine is not available, full membership in the EU, yes we are all in that, but it can take time.

[0:33:23] So some kind of this creation of European Defence Union with participation of EU member states, but also Ukraine, UK, Norway and Canada could be a solution geographically.

[0:33:36] En dat European Defence Union zouden hebben een European Defence Unions Council, waar alle de members zouden zitten aan de tableen.

[0:33:44] 30 of whatever members.

[0:33:46] Maar voor effectiviteit van management, we kunnen kijken naar...

[0:33:56] In onze part van de wereld, we learn from the Soviets, het presidium van...

[0:34:03] een kind of smaller body which is of powerful participants, Germany, Italy, France, UK, Poland, maybe Ukraine even.

[0:34:16] And then several rotational members could be that some kind of this body which really discussing all the major issues and then if there is a need they are going with their ideas down to the council of European Defence Union

[0:34:33] En dat is mijn picture.

[0:34:35] Hoe het gaat, welke steps we gaan, we zullen zien.

[0:34:40] Maar at least dat we...

[0:34:43] We understand dat institutional arrangements... ...are niet fit anymore... ...to de challenges van vandaag.

[0:34:50] En dan dat we moeten... ...start te look voor nieuwe architectures.

[0:34:55] Dit is heel belangrijk.

[0:34:56] Dus dat is one.

[0:34:58] Nu, SpaceShield.

[0:35:00] Ja, het is een groot topik, een partij van mijn portfolio.

[0:35:04] En ik was jokie dat exactly yesterday, ik heb een half de dag op space.

[0:35:08] On launchen nu is onze prioriteit, want we kunnen hebben wat we gaan doen in space.

[0:35:15] Maar first of all, we moeten transporten naar space.

[0:35:18] En hier hebben we heel veel challenge.

[0:35:21] Maar op SpaceShield, ja, we willen severalen dingen.

[0:35:29] En het covers...

[0:35:30] van de dual-use issues.

[0:35:33] Of course, voor ons de belangrijkste is de space voor de defense en de defense op space issues.

[0:35:38] Maar first of all, we need to look at wat we still are missing in general.

[0:35:44] Voor Europa, for example, early warning systems.

[0:35:47] So we need... First, the topic is how to build what we are still missing.

[0:35:58] We are developing some systems which are very important for defence, where at the moment some national member states are developing their own capabilities, but still we do not see that it will cover everything that will be needed.

[0:36:17] And one of those new topics which we are looking for is as observation governmental service,

[0:36:23] Of, as we are saying, ice in the skies, or sometimes I am saying spice in the sky.

[0:36:31] Ready to have proper intelligence data.

[0:36:34] We are now developing, and that will be a success story, we're absolutely clear about Iris Square.

[0:36:40] We're building this secure satellite communication like European Starlink.

[0:36:44] But besides that, for example, this S-Observation Governmental Service, some member states are developing.

[0:36:50] Germany is investing quite a lot.

[0:36:52] Wat we do not see is that it will cover everything what we need to have.

[0:36:55] So we need build additional capabilities and then to look how we can integrate all the national capabilities in order to have proper capabilities.

[0:37:07] Now this is one of those strategic enablers where we are quite dependent on Americans because you can, what does it mean, what kind of capabilities we need

[0:37:18] Now, Galileo, our system is the best in the world.

[0:37:22] Copernicus is the beste for us observation.

[0:37:24] We can be very proud.

[0:37:26] But in terms of military needs, definitely Copernicus is not enough.

[0:37:34] Because it does not give a very precise picture.

[0:37:37] Now your new technologies are much more precise.

[0:37:40] You know, you can see...

[0:37:43] of what is happening on the ground in a very good picture and all the different modes, infrared, radar, so there is no problem.

[0:38:00] It's not only optical, you can see during the night, during the clouds and so on and so

[0:38:07] En het tweede is de frequentie van revisitingen.

[0:38:12] En te zien hoe vaak je kan zien dezelfde spot.

[0:38:16] Dus nu Copernicus kan je dezelfdesde spot eens een dag.

[0:38:21] De Chinese zijn bouwt hun militaire system met spies in de skies, die ze geven de pictureen in 6 minuten.

[0:38:32] Dus je hebt dan een on-time picture.

[0:38:36] Dus dat is wat we moeten hebben, en dat is waar we moeten combinee both EU attempts en de national attempts.

[0:38:46] Dus dat zijn de additionalal.

[0:38:48] Dan, echt, we moeten kijken hoe we in all de different areas, hoe we can integrate national assets.

[0:38:56] En voor example, nu we're doing het met de same IRIS-Square.

[0:38:59] De eerste stage, we created so-called Gov.com for CQ satellite communication.

[0:39:04] want we offer it as a platform where we are integrating what member states have but after that we shall come to Irish Square and the last point here in this shield what we are looking for is how to create from all the systems which we are now building or building on national level and then we're trying to integrate or building as European systems

[0:39:32] hoe to make wat we call system of systems.

[0:39:37] Hoe to integrate different systems, like IRI2, like S-observation, like other systems, working in a good synergy and bringing additional benefits.

[0:39:50] So this is really the whole idea of the shield.

[0:39:53] And the last point, which is very important for us,

[0:39:56] is really to create those systems that our militaries, military people would be satisfied.

[0:40:06] And they are sometimes when we're talking about some systems of dual use, they are suspicious about civilian presence not far away from that system.

[0:40:21] So we need really to take into account all the

[0:40:25] All the needs of our military.

[0:40:27] So this is SHIELD, wat we are building, especially for this part of space for defense.

[0:40:36] But there is very important another part, defense of space.

[0:40:40] Because space is becoming contested and we can see what Russians are demonstrating in space, how they can hit, for time being, their own satellites.

[0:40:50] Maar het is een kwestie van tijd, als ze beginnen te kijken naar de mogelijkheden om hoe te destroyen onze systemen.

[0:40:59] En we moeten bewaren voor dat.

[0:41:05] Thank you, Commissioner, for your elaborate answers.

[0:41:08] Very insightful.

[0:41:10] I will now give the floor to the other members.

[0:41:14] I'll take three questions and then I'll give the door to the Commissioner to answer once again.

[0:41:18] Mr. Bolhuis.

[0:41:19] Yes, thank you, Mr. Kobilius, for being here.

[0:41:21] Very honoured to have you here.

[0:41:23] And also thanks for the answers and introductions, which are very insightful and help us with our debate.

[0:41:29] I want to...

[0:41:30] discuss the procurement and also the security of supply because here in the Netherlands we also have discussions that after the procurement process we still buy American or Chinese where we want to move towards European or Dutch products.

[0:41:46] So I just want to know what are the extra European rules or guidance or standards you want to set there to move that in the right direction.

[0:41:58] The same goes for the

[0:41:59] De special contracts with industries, which are of course very important, the special contracts to keep the labour force and production capacity available for the moment we need to ramp up.

[0:42:11] But still that's a national mandate or responsibility, I think, these contracts.

[0:42:17] So do we need shift some rules or mandates or legislation from the national to the European level there?

[0:42:24] How do you see that?

[0:42:25] Thank you, Mr. Bolhuis.

[0:42:27] Then we'll get to Ms.

[0:42:28] Tenhove, Group Marcus Hauer.

[0:42:30] Thank you.

[0:42:31] Also a thanks from me for Mr. Kobilius to be here and his staff.

[0:42:36] Thank-you.

[0:42:37] I have a question about the biggest... What is your opinion of the biggest bottlenecks for EDIP at the moment, according to the Netherlands?

[0:42:45] And the solutions for us as a committee to work on that bottlenecks?

[0:42:52] Dank u voor uw vraag.

[0:43:13] Maar er is ook een need for spendings, voor goed infrastructuur en dat de troepen kan snel van west naar east gaan.

[0:43:25] Doe je friktion tussen de investeringen die nodig zijn in de huis en wat nodig is voor internationale verbindingen?

[0:43:37] Dank u, meneer De Groot.

[0:43:39] Je hebt 10 minuten remaining, commissioner.

[0:43:41] En ik denk dat je heel veel insight om te shareen met de committee.

[0:43:46] Ik wil try to be brief, maar... Try to be breef, dat would be great.

[0:43:52] Voor jou.

[0:43:53] Mijn experience als politici is, als ik proberen om te breven, dan komt het op hetzelfde.

[0:44:03] Natuurlijk politici hebben het.

[0:44:05] Ja, procurement.

[0:44:10] Chinese, American, and what to do with European preference.

[0:44:18] Well, first of all, as I said before, I will not repeat that, I see European preference as some kind of, not protectionism, but really development of very important...

[0:44:30] En dat is de realiteit, dat we niet producen wat we nodig hebben.

[0:44:43] Wat moeten we hebben en wat we doen?

[0:44:45] We moeten hebben capaciteit, maar we zijn niet producet.

[0:44:50] Dat is waarom we gaan weg.

[0:44:53] Of we niet hebben proper componenten.

[0:44:56] en nitrocellulose, dus we moeten starten te producen hier.

[0:45:01] En dat is wat we are doing, wat we're trying to achieve with EDIP program.

[0:45:06] Maar EDIPP program heeft één shortcoming.

[0:45:11] Voor het tijd zijn, het heeft een heel limited budget.

[0:45:17] Het is bijna geen budget at all.

[0:45:18] Het was... hoeveel we had?

[0:45:19] 1.5 billion?

[0:45:22] Ja.

[0:45:23] Voor de laatste jaar, voor dit jaar enzovoel, in addition, we included Ukraine support instrument.

[0:45:33] We are speaking about peanuts.

[0:45:39] We see really that even with those peanuts, for example, now with that program on security of supply when we looked into explosives, with 160 million euros,

[0:45:52] 1.5 billion really we see the contracts which we opened to the tender companies are coming with a lot of interest now we have selection of

[0:46:04] Well, it will be announced quite soon.

[0:46:06] I will not go into the details.

[0:46:07] But in some cases we are resolving around 50% of specific problems with explosives for the whole Europe.

[0:46:16] Even with that small amount of money.

[0:46:19] If we would have a big amount, we would resolve much more.

[0:46:22] So that's again I'm pitching next MFF.

[0:46:26] That really on EU level we can do quite a lot what member states are not able to do.

[0:46:31] Definitely, again, what we need to remember is that I said at the very beginning again, the proportion.

[0:46:39] Next MFF till 2035 is 130 billion euros for defence and space.

[0:46:45] So we can imagine it can be more or less 65, 65 or something like that.

[0:46:51] So for defence we shall have around 60 billion euros from next year till 2075.

[0:46:59] Member States will spend 6 trillion.

[0:47:02] We are not regulating member states, how they're spending money.

[0:47:12] I don't know how much we shall bring into this language of procurement.

[0:47:14] Usually member states don't like very much that we are trying to teach them.

[0:47:19] They are deciding by themselves, so let's see how it will go.

[0:47:21] Again, I see the need of this orientation to Europeans, but unavoidably in some cases we have issues that we're not producing

[0:47:32] So that is my answer to how to invest more into European.

[0:47:38] It's some kind of, you know, circle, what is that called?

[0:47:43] Chicken work, you now.

[0:47:48] We're not buying our production because we're not producing.

[0:47:50] But when we're no buying our product, we're investing into our industry.

[0:47:55] And the industry is not able to produce.

[0:47:57] So that's what we need to resolve.

[0:47:59] Now special contracts, wat we call warm facility contracts.

[0:48:04] This is very important.

[0:48:06] And again, we have EDIB, European Defence Industry Programme, special language.

[0:48:12] We are working on that, how to make it more operational, how we can do those contracts.

[0:48:20] But again, the problem, the first problem is that lack of money at this moment in EDIP.

[0:48:26] So perhaps more of those possibilities will start to appear with the next MFF, with those 60 billion euros we shall have.

[0:48:34] Definitely I see the need of these ever-worn facilities very much, especially in some specific cases where, as I said before, for example drone production for me is a very good example.

[0:48:46] During peacetime you don't need to start to produce because that will become obsolete, but if you will not be ready

[0:48:52] To scale up, to ramp up.

[0:48:56] When the war starts, you will have big problems.

[0:49:00] Now, the question was biggest obstacles for EDIP.

[0:49:05] Again, I can repeat the same.

[0:49:08] Money.

[0:49:08] For time being, yes, money.

[0:49:14] I would not say some kind of other big obstacles.

[0:49:19] I don't know what to name even.

[0:49:21] We have quite a lot of really good new possibilities, which EDIP is allowing to start to develop, like I said.

[0:49:28] Ever warm facilities.

[0:49:31] Support expansion of the industry, so-called subtype programs.

[0:49:44] Now they are called... They have some... EDIPP industry support actions.

[0:49:46] No.

[0:49:46] Okay.

[0:49:46] Some kind of... Yeah.

[0:49:47] We shall start to remember what...

[0:49:49] Maar het was, historisch, het was called ASAP.

[0:50:00] Nu it's a little bit changed.

[0:50:02] Then we have very good also program, the same program which earlier was called ADERPA to support common procurement.

[0:50:10] We are continuing that.

[0:50:10] Those programs are allowing us, for example, really to start to look for possibility to resolve security of supply problems.

[0:50:13] And security of supplies is a big part of this ED program.

[0:50:17] want this is really where we need to concentrate our thoughts to secure a possibility for us to produce what we need and not to be dependent on additional suppliers.

[0:50:30] Everwarn facilities I said even in some way possibility to support

[0:50:45] ...reserves of weapons, stockpiling of weapons.

[0:50:51] That also could be done and that is what we shall look also.

[0:50:54] So for time being there is a potential which we need to be ready to use but the problem is that we cannot employ the whole potential without sufficient amount of money.

[0:51:07] Military mobility.

[0:51:09] Yes this is now it's for...

[0:51:11] Hoe do I say, for this season, that will be our crucial priority because we are coming to trialogs with the Parliament and Council.

[0:51:24] And in general, you know, I see really this as a crucial topic for us.

[0:51:35] You know, it's very easy to explain, as I said, you

[0:51:39] John Pershing was saying that battles are won by infantry, but the wars are won because that is very clear.

[0:51:50] If you are not able to move your troops or your material goods, you're done.

[0:51:54] Now what is important and why we're trying to shift attention, and that is why I will spend today also, we shall look into military mobility issues related with Rotterdam,

[0:52:07] We shall talk with your minister.

[0:52:11] First of all, we need to start to understand that in military mobility issues, usually till now, we were talking about two major problems.

[0:52:24] One is infrastructure.

[0:52:25] Hoe hebben we roads, bruggen, railways, fit voor military needs.

[0:52:32] Dual-use infrastructure, maar fit voor militaire needs.

[0:52:38] We know we made our evaluations.

[0:52:41] Er zijn 500 hotspots in Europe, die we nodig hebben.

[0:52:50] Het will kost money.

[0:52:52] De calculations werden over 70 billion euro's.

[0:52:54] Of course, we also need to be smart.

[0:52:57] We need to concentrate on priority corridors.

[0:53:03] Now we have four corridors, and one of them is exactly the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, and going up to eastern flank.

[0:53:13] So that is perhaps real.

[0:53:14] If you look from defense standing, it's perhaps a priority.

[0:53:22] Maar infrastructure is one thing.

[0:53:27] Second, of course, legal regulations on the borders.

[0:53:32] How to avoid what we had till now that each border demands permits to cross and that was in average taking 45 days to go for militaries from

[0:53:44] van Spanien to the Baltic, wat is totally unacceptable.

[0:53:51] So-called military mobility package, we are really resolving some of those issues.

[0:53:57] We propose much more smooth crossing of the borders.

[0:54:04] It's a three-day permit to cross the whole Europe in the case of...

[0:54:09] of crisis emerge in the regime and you are just notifying that you will go across.

[0:54:15] But in addition to those two topics, infrastructure and permits, there are very important topics related with logistics.

[0:54:22] I mean, you can have all the permits and so on, but you can get a shortage of flatbeds for trains, you could get the shortage of lorries, you have the shortage cargo ships

[0:54:36] En dat is wat we want to look really much more deeply.

[0:54:47] Again, military mobility package offers to create so-called solidarity pool, waar we can bring all the assets from different countries into one kind of...

[0:54:56] Coordinated pool in order if there is a challenge, an issue that you can use.

[0:55:02] And again we need very much support of the governments in order not to relax some of those regulations.

[0:55:13] Sorry, again, as a politician, I did not manage that.

[0:55:19] I think we're all familiar with that fact.

[0:55:21] And thank you so much, Mr. Kobilius, for sharing your insights, the priorities of the Commission for the upcoming period, and also for engaging in this exchange of thoughts with our Dutch MPs.

[0:55:36] This meeting has hereby come to an end.

[0:55:38] Thank you again, Commissioner, for joining us here today in The Hague.

[0:55:41] Thank you also to the people watching at home or right now here.

[0:55:46] And I close this meeting.

[0:55:47] De vergadering is hierbij gesloten.