Onderzoek EPC naar de uitvoering van het Europees Asiel- en Migratiepact

[0:00:00] Welkom bij deze technische briefing door de onderzoekers van het EPC over de uitvoering van het Europees Asiel- en Migratiepact.

[0:00:07] En zoals afgesproken met de leden en de gasten is de voertaal van de briefing Engels.

[0:00:14] So good afternoon and welcome to this meeting of the standing committee on asylum and migration of the Dutch House of Representatives.

[0:00:20] I would like to extend a special welcome to our guests, Ms.

[0:00:23] Haan en Ms.

[0:00:24] Jacob from the European Policy Center, the EPC.

[0:00:27] Today's meeting focuses on the report on the critical factors for the successful implementation of the EU Asylum and Migration Pact and its implications for Dutch reception and asylum systems.

[0:00:40] This meeting is open to the public and is also being live streamed.

[0:00:43] Thank you for joining us to present your findings to the committee.

[0:00:48] And before we begin, I would like to introduce the members of the committee who are present here today.

[0:00:53] That's Mr. Keunemans of JA21.

[0:00:56] Mevrouw Van der Plaas van BBB, mevrouw Lammers van Groep Marcus Sauer en ikzelf.

[0:01:03] Ik ben de chair van D66.

[0:01:06] Ik geef nu de vloer aan mevrouw Haan, geloof ik, voor een brief presentatie over de huidige gevondenheden.

[0:01:13] En na deze presentaties zal de MP de kans hebben om vragen te stellen.

[0:01:18] De vloer is dus aan u.

[0:01:21] Heel erg bedankt.

[0:01:22] En ook een bedankt aan meneer Flores-Nortov en zijn team... ...om ons door de afgelopen maanden te ondersteunen... ...en de goede samenwerking te hebben.

[0:01:32] We zijn ook heel blij om deze kans te hebben... ...om met u direct te reageren na vele maanden voorbereiding van dit rapport.

[0:01:37] My name is Helena Hahn.

[0:01:38] I'm a policy analyst with the EPC in Brussels.

[0:01:41] And I'm joined here by Virginie Jacob, who is senior advisor.

[0:01:44] We will both be speaking today, covering the main points.

[0:01:50] So, the report that we will be presenting examines, as the title suggests, the critical factors for the implementation of the pact...

[0:01:59] with a particular attention to its implications for Dutch asylum and reception systems.

[0:02:06] The research largely took place in the final period, in the final third of the period leaning up to June 12th of this year, whereas we are now of course several months into the implementation process.

[0:02:18] As such, the presentation will focus on the main research findings, with an understanding that subsequent questions or comments may also be based on consideration

[0:02:27] of policy and political developments following the June deadline.

[0:02:32] We also, of course, have to take into account ongoing developments as regards arrival numbers and asylum application numbers, the EU's and member states' ongoing efforts to engage with neighboring and partner countries on migration issues, as well as the role of national elections as broader contextual factors that can shape the implementation process.

[0:02:55] De centrale onderzoeksvraag die we in dit rapport ontdekken is... ...hoe de implementatiedynamiek in andere member-staten... ...de praktische verantwoordelijkheden van de praktische reformen... ...voor Nederlanderlanden zal vormen.

[0:03:11] Het onderzoek heeft een comparatieve en bepaalde onderzoek gebruikt... ...om vier member-staten te focussen.

[0:03:16] Buiten Nederland hebben we in het bijzonder gekeken naar België, Spanje en Italië.

[0:03:20] And we also decided to narrow the scope of the analysis to focus on four interconnected areas.

[0:03:27] These are screening Eurodac and border procedures.

[0:03:31] In second place, the rules regarding responsibility determination and transfers.

[0:03:37] As a third component, the solidarity mechanism and the functioning of the solidarity system.

[0:03:43] And then finally, also reception conditions and reception preparedness.

[0:03:47] We treated...

[0:03:49] rules or ideas to address secondary movements across the EU as a transversal issue, given that it is connected with a number of the topics mentioned above.

[0:03:59] Before delving into some of the main findings, I just wanted to add one more point on the methodology.

[0:04:06] As mentioned, our research was completed in early May 2026, taking into account the Commission's latest assessment of Member States' efforts to advance implementation preparation, as well as other sources and information that were available to us by that point in time.

[0:04:22] The report therefore provides an assessment of implementation preparedness and identifies potential risks and interdependencies.

[0:04:29] Het is niet een retrospectieve evaluatie van hoe de member-staten de pakt sinds juni hebben geïmplementeerd.

[0:04:37] We zullen kort betrekken wat afgelopen ontwikkelingen waren relevant, maar deze moeten uiteraard worden uitgelegd van de opmerkingen van onze onderzoek, die alleen te maken hebben met het tijdperiode.

[0:04:46] Nu gaan we naar de eerste vraag die we ontdekken.

[0:04:53] De vraag was, in welke member-staten is het implementeren van het Pact gemakkelijk en waar is het stalen?

[0:04:59] Het ontdek dat we kregen was dat voorbereidheid significatief veranderde over politieke omgevingen, in plaats van een duidelijke divide tussen member-staten die klaar zijn en die die achteraan vallen.

[0:05:11] The comparative assessment found that none of the four countries we examined in the study was expected to be fully prepared across all relevant components by June 12th, 2026.

[0:05:24] However, and this is important...

[0:05:26] The nature and the extent of the gaps that existed at that time differed considerably.

[0:05:32] Just to give you some insights.

[0:05:34] The Netherlands were comparatively advanced with regards to preparations for screening and border procedures.

[0:05:41] There were some remaining difficulties concerning responsibility transfers, and there was also significant pressure on reception capacity.

[0:05:51] At the same time,

[0:05:53] There were advanced preparations with regards to the implementation of the revised Eurodac system, although transitional arrangements also made for some uncertainties as to when full system integration could be achieved.

[0:06:09] Belgium saw improvements with regards to its capacities to conduct responsibility transfers, including via IT systems, case management and dedicated facilities.

[0:06:21] However, challenges remained regarding the screening on the territory and there were also notable constraints with regards to reception capacity.

[0:06:30] Italië, vervolgens, boosteerde wat operatieve onzekerheden.

[0:06:35] Voornamelijk als het gaat om het screenen en de bordprocedures.

[0:06:39] Er waren ook wat notabele infrastructuur- en organisatorische uitdagingen.

[0:06:43] En wat onzekerheden rondom Italië's mogelijkheid om inkomende verantwoordelijkheden te resumeren.

[0:06:50] Spanje heeft uiteindelijk investeringen gezien in afstandsorganisaties.

[0:06:57] Het had ook organisatorische en interinstitutionele coördinatieverantwoordelijkheden.

[0:07:02] Er waren ook territoriale veranderingen in termen van receptie, capaciteit en voorbereiding die voor de volgende implementatie een uitdaging maakten.

[0:07:12] En in dit bepaalde geval is het ook waard om te noteren dat Spanje alleen een drafleg heeft voor de nieuwe asielregels na de 12 juni-deel.

[0:07:25] En over alle vier landen moet het ook worden genoemd dat de transisie naar het revised juridische systeem een belangrijke uitdaging was.

[0:07:33] The key message that we want to bring here is that previous operational experience does not necessarily translate into full preparedness for the pact's more demanding requirements, especially where, for instance, the territory poses challenges as in the case of Spain and or where coordination between relevant authorities is complex for a number of reasons.

[0:07:57] A final point that while we try to identify or isolate national bilateral new EU-wide effects, these could not always be assessed systematically at that stage, in part due to information gaps.

[0:08:13] Recent developments, including the events in Ceuta, have also highlighted the importance of considering preparedness not only under relatively stable conditions, but also in situations of sudden and exceptional pressure.

[0:08:26] These events, of course, fall outside of our research period, but they nevertheless illustrate the type of operational stress that the Pact's implementation framework needs to accommodate.

[0:08:37] As a second point...

[0:08:39] The second question that we tried to examine was what are the underlying factors contributing to success or failure in each member state.

[0:08:48] Here we found a number of factors influencing preparedness.

[0:08:51] On the one hand this is legislative adaptation and there we saw that this can also have potential knock-on effects on administrative capacity, responsibilities and then also operational chains of commands.

[0:09:06] A further factor is infrastructure and staffing and IT systems, coordination between competent authorities, as well as political commitment and willingness to cooperate with other member states or also to comply with the rules.

[0:09:21] And a final point of course is existing pressures on national asylum and reception systems.

[0:09:27] And here the key point that we want to drive home is that

[0:09:32] The measures that were taken by member states point to progress and advancements on a number of fronts.

[0:09:39] They show how administrative and operational investments can pay off, and how they can improve preparedness in specific areas of the pact, even where parts of the national systems otherwise remain under pressure.

[0:09:52] However, there is a dynamic and a symbiosis between the two, so it is always important to consider all of these factors in one go.

[0:10:01] En met dat, en in de toekomst van tijd, ben ik blij om over te geven aan Virginie.

[0:10:10] Ja, bedankt Helena.

[0:10:12] Dus doorgaan we naar de derde onderzoeksvraag, die was, tot welke hoogte kunnen implementatieproblemen ergens veroorzaken de consistentie en duidelijkheid van het pacte?

[0:10:23] At the EU level, this is the core analysis of the report.

[0:10:28] We identified several systemic dependencies and potential pathways through which an event implementation in one member state could generate spillover effects elsewhere in the common European asylum system.

[0:10:43] So please note that this of course remains a prospective analysis.

[0:10:49] We are not predicting future and we identified a plausible risk taking into account both the new rules but also the past dynamics.

[0:10:59] dat may persist.

[0:11:02] First, of course, there are several factors impacting the scale and the nature of the spillover effects.

[0:11:13] First, the volume of arrivals, including sudden increase fluctuations.

[0:11:20] Because at the time we wrote the report, we identified that lower arrival numbers facilitated the implementation

[0:11:28] ...maar ze demonstreren niet hoe systemen onder belangrijke druk functioneren... ...zoals dit zomer in Ceuta gezien.

[0:11:40] Er is ook een andere factor, de member-state-positie... ...in het Comune Européen-Azalem-systeem.

[0:11:48] Er is een verschil tussen extreembordelijke landen of landen zoals Nederland en België... ...die geïnteresseerd worden door secondaire bewegingen.

[0:11:55] And as mentioned by Helena also the existing structural constraint and operational preparedness.

[0:12:02] And then there are a second effect which is the cumulative effect of the pathway.

[0:12:08] Difficulties affecting several interconnected functions can reinforce one another increasing pressure on the wider system.

[0:12:18] And I would like to highlight this with one concrete example.

[0:12:23] This is the chain linking

[0:12:25] Screening, Eurodac, border procedure, responsibility transfers, reception and solidarity.

[0:12:30] So first you have screening which is the entry door to the system.

[0:12:35] But if this function is affected it could cause security problem with applicants not properly screened.

[0:12:47] but also incomplete or ineffective data collection, which will in turn affect Eurodac.

[0:12:55] And first, this screening workload could shift to member state of destination, such as the Netherlands.

[0:13:01] Second, Eurodac could be incomplete, so it won't be possible to establish responsibility if there is no Eurodac data for a specific applicant.

[0:13:13] And then in the middle of that you have also border procedure if time limits are not respected or if there is any issue, implementation gaps with the fact that the applicant has to remain available to the authority.

[0:13:28] It could cause secondary movements because they have access to the territory.

[0:13:33] And then after you have this pathway to responsibility procedures and even if you have as a national authority

[0:13:43] to prove that the responsibility can be established for another member state, it doesn't mean that you could execute the transfers because reception conditions has an impact.

[0:13:55] Because if reception conditions are not sufficient in the member state responsible, you could have a judicial intervention suspending transfers to this country.

[0:14:06] It was for example the case in the Netherlands for transfer of single men to Belgium.

[0:14:11] It was a general judicial suspension.

[0:14:13] Because single men were excluded from the reception system in Belgium two years ago.

[0:14:18] And then you have a last impact, which is the impact on solidarity mechanism.

[0:14:23] Because if contributing member states are perceiving the system as unbalanced because the responsibility side is not fulfilled, of course this could affect their contribution to the next cycle.

[0:14:40] And they could be more cautious about what they

[0:14:43] ...they will propose.

[0:14:44] And then it could have this perception from beneficiaries... ...that the contributions are not enough.

[0:14:53] But this is not an inevitable outcome.

[0:14:57] It depends on the circumstances, the scale of variables... ...and the implementation gaps, capacity also of national system... ...to respond to these gaps after package implementation.

[0:15:09] And of course...

[0:15:10] The contribution of all these elements to secondary movements and these pathways is difficult to establish.

[0:15:19] But, so an important nuance still here, this is that our report does not conclude because of that, that implementation gaps would make the pact totally unworkable.

[0:15:33] But we identify risk that could undermine the consistency, the effectiveness

[0:15:40] En vooral nu, tijdens de initiële implementatiefase van het Pact.

[0:15:47] En dit leidt ons naar de vier vragen, die focussen op Nederland.

[0:15:53] Dus wat risico's en lessen zijn relevant voor Nederland?

[0:15:58] Dus hier ontdekken we dat de principale systematische risico's in de individuele en cumulatieve effecten van een implementatie ergens anders liggen.

[0:16:09] considering the Netherlands as a member state affected by secondary movements.

[0:16:15] So, the first risk is the difficulty in establishing and transferring responsibility to other member states.

[0:16:24] So, as mentioned, even where responsibility can be established, transfers depend on administrative, political cooperation, operational capacity and adequate reception conditions and asylum procedures in

[0:16:39] the responsible member states.

[0:16:41] And this for the Netherlands could be translated very concretely that it will add additional case management workload, additional people in the reception system if there is no possible transfers and longer stay within the Dutch reception system.

[0:17:02] The second risk is linked to the secondary movement and additional pressure on the dutch asylum and reception system.

[0:17:10] If there are operational difficulties at the external borders with screening, with border procedures, it could contribute to onward movements.

[0:17:21] But also there are differences in reception conditions that can be partly...

[0:17:30] Dat kan gezien worden als een drijver naar de secondaire beweging.

[0:17:35] Dus een evenwicht in de receptieconditie over de member-staten kan ook contribueren naar de secondaire beweging.

[0:17:41] En dit samen te houden kan een voortdurende moeite genereren voor het Nederlandse asielsysteem.

[0:17:50] Dan de interactie met de bestaande domestische receptiepressies hier in Nederland...

[0:17:59] They are pre-existing constraints for the Netherlands in the reception system, including high occupancy rates, reliance on emergency accommodation.

[0:18:11] So this is the cumulative effect.

[0:18:13] If you have additional arrival, if you have longer stay in the reception system, if you have secondary movement scale on a system already under pressure, of course you have the cumulative effect.

[0:18:26] And this...

[0:18:29] tell us that actually the Netherlands enters the implementation phase with relative strength in screening, preparedness and digital case management and strong procedural and administrative capacity.

[0:18:46] But there are also some weaknesses linked historically to the reception system.

[0:18:54] And even with

[0:18:58] En dit is...

[0:19:28] Important to understand in the view of this transition period that the pact application from 12 June does not immediately remove all the structural difficulties of active member states, including the Netherlands, the pre-existing difficulties.

[0:19:45] And this may continue to interact with implementation gaps across the European Union.

[0:19:54] And then for the final conclusion, I would like to highlight that first the report recognizes that there are significant efforts made by the different member states to prepare for the new framework.

[0:20:10] But this preparedness is really uneven and the fact that each member state enters the implementation phase with very different starting points is also...

[0:20:23] ...an issue to take into account.

[0:20:29] And for us, 12 June marked actually the beginning... ...of a longer transition and implementation period.

[0:20:37] But not the completion of the reform.

[0:20:39] And national system will continue to adapt to the new reform.

[0:20:46] And of course, the central conclusion is that implementation elsewhere...

[0:20:51] So, that's it.

[0:21:01] Thank you very much.

[0:21:17] Dank u wel voor uw presentatie.

[0:21:20] Ik geef nu de vloer aan mijn collega's... ...om vragen over deze presentatie.

[0:21:27] Meneer Koudemans.

[0:21:27] Dank u, voorzitter.

[0:21:28] Deze zomer heeft een Duitse schuldige beoordeld... ...dat ons land niet verantwoordelijk is om asielbezoekers terug te brengen naar Italië... ...een beoordeling die in scharke conflict is met de basisprincipes van het Pact.

[0:21:37] Gisteren beoordelde een andere schuldige anders... ...maar het probleem is al maanden doorgegaan.

[0:21:42] Kunnen jullie daarop reflecteren?

[0:21:47] Yes, so first there is, I would say, an historical problem with Dublin transfers to Italy, which are suspended since 2022.

[0:21:59] So it was one of the weaknesses identified in the report that it will be very difficult for Italy to rebuild capacity after four years without any transfer to Italy.

[0:22:11] There was also the assessment of the Commission on the first...

[0:22:15] three weeks of the pact and on responsibility, saying that Italy was actually good in preparedness, but there was many operational difficulties.

[0:22:31] And to me this is something we pointed out in the report, that there is the preparedness

[0:22:40] From one side and on the other side implementation.

[0:22:43] And you could be prepared with a Dublin unit, a working Dublin unit.

[0:22:47] But if there is no political will to go further with transfers, there is unsatisfaction linked to solidarity contribution.

[0:22:56] Or there is other gaps in IT management.

[0:23:01] We heard that Dublin had that fellow member state to make requests between each other was particularly problematic for Italy.

[0:23:10] during the summer and the last months.

[0:23:14] And so of course all this is problematic in terms of the wider effects on the system.

[0:23:23] So, and this is something also we mentioned that we should not expect that the dynamic that are at play for years now would change overnight after 12 June.

[0:23:36] And this is the case with...

[0:23:39] Thanks for your presentation.

[0:23:53] In the Netherlands, around 3500 to 4000 asylum seekers

[0:24:01] komen naar Nederland elke maand.

[0:24:05] Dat zijn ongeveer 800.000 asielbezoekers per week.

[0:24:11] In Denemarken waren er vorig jaar 5.000 asielbezoekers per jaar.

[0:24:20] In Nederland rond 4.000 per maand.

[0:24:24] Kun je ons vertellen wat de verschillen zijn tussen de politieken in Denemarken en waarom ze stricte asielpolitieken hebben?

[0:24:40] En vooral dan de mogelijkheid voor Nederland om ook stricte politieken te implementeren binnen het Europese Migratiepact.

[0:24:56] Dank u wel.

[0:24:57] Het is waarschijnlijk waard om te zeggen dat we Denemarken in dit onderzoek niet hebben gesproken.

[0:25:11] Maar ik ben blij om een start te maken en dan kan Virginie ook antwoorden als ze zich voelt.

[0:25:13] Zoals u waarschijnlijk weet, is Denemarken op een weg gekomen waarin het een paradigmatische verandering heeft geframederd.

[0:25:16] en zijn migratiepolitiek een paar jaar geleden.

[0:25:20] Ik denk dat met respect tot de punten die we ook in het onderzoek hebben genoemd, het is factoren zoals de geografische positie, de typen van migratieflossingen die een land bevindt, zoals Denemarken, vergelijkbaar met Nederland, vergelijkbaar met Spanje.

[0:25:34] Dat betekent ook dat verschillende types politieken mogelijk zijn en verschillende soorten doelen kunnen worden gesteld.

[0:25:40] Denemarken heeft natuurlijk ook een beetje een unieke positie in de zin dat het kan opt-in naar bepaalde elementen van de pakt, maar is daarom niet verbonden met dezelfde regels.

[0:25:57] En dat betekent natuurlijk dat het nog steeds aan het EU-niveau gaat op een aantal verschillende problemen, maar dat het altijd een slightly andere weg volgt, gebaseerd op politieke objectieven, maar ook op de legale obligaties die het heeft.

[0:26:06] En dit beschrijft ook waarom Den Haag zijn cursus een beetje anders moet worden aangezien van de implementatie van de Pact-regels.

[0:26:21] Een volgende vraag misschien?

[0:26:23] Ja, ik wilde ook vragen over de mogelijkheden voor Nederland voor een striktere migratiepolitie.

[0:26:36] First to build a little bit on Denmark and the Netherlands.

[0:26:47] Of course there are different routes, migratory routes for secondary movements in Netherlands, Belgium.

[0:26:54] They are more attractive, if I may not, only for the policy, the asylum policy, but of course for...

[0:27:02] The migratory route to UK.

[0:27:06] This is something important.

[0:27:09] And then the fact that the Netherlands could have a stricter policy.

[0:27:18] I mean, I don't know if...

[0:27:23] This has an impact on the flows, you know, you have.

[0:27:27] Because you mentioned the numbers, but we don't know what is under the numbers.

[0:27:34] I mean, this is multiple application from people who are on the Dutch territory for years.

[0:27:40] For example, we don't really know.

[0:27:42] I think for the Netherlands, half of the asylum application you have yearly is multiple subsequent applications.

[0:27:50] So you have...

[0:27:50] repetitive application from the same people on the Dutch territory who are already on the Dutch territory.

[0:27:58] So maybe this is not about strict asylum policy, but it's more about return.

[0:28:04] The fact that if those people have been refused asylum eligibility, they should be returned at some point.

[0:28:13] But of course, as you know, we didn't cover the return because it's not strictly part of the pact.

[0:28:19] This is another regulation, but this is a question for debate.

[0:28:31] But then there are other things I would like to mention.

[0:28:37] This is that stricter asylum policy.

[0:28:43] Asylum policy now is mainly European competency, so this is

[0:28:49] Wat de member states have negotiated years ago between 2020 and 2024, the pact is the outcome of these negotiations.

[0:28:59] So I don't know from the national perspective what could be done, but yeah.

[0:29:08] Mies Lommers.

[0:29:10] Thank you for your presentation.

[0:29:14] We saw that with Ceuta the border of the EU broke down.

[0:29:22] How is it possible to deal with that in the future?

[0:29:29] Had the pact promised to stop illegal migration and strengthen the border control?

[0:29:39] Maar ja, het werkte niet op dat moment.

[0:29:42] En nu hebben we de afgelopen week gehoord dat 3 miljoen Marokkaans willen komen naar Europa.

[0:29:51] Hoe voorkomen we dat weer?

[0:29:56] Misschien omdat dat de rapport was die we nu discussiëren.

[0:30:01] Die kijkt terug naar de periode van juni 12.

[0:30:03] Dus...

[0:30:05] Ja, inderdaad.

[0:30:11] Misschien gaat het een beetje buiten de schop van wat we hebben gesproken, maar ik ben nog steeds blij om een paar van de dingen te noemen die de Pact in een geval heeft te bieden.

[0:30:22] Dus op de ene kant denk ik dat er één belangrijke ding te houden is dat de Pact ook heel veel prediceerd is op vergroot anticipatieve bewustzijn.

[0:30:32] on a more data driven approach to migration.

[0:30:34] So one thing that member states and the European institutions can of course look into is how to better be able to monitor migratory flows, how to better understand who is moving what and where.

[0:30:47] And that can also help to inform an understanding of potential future events.

[0:30:54] At the same time I think it's also important to highlight that there are

[0:30:57] Of course the policy and if we think particular about the crisis in force majeure regulation is of course built on past experience.

[0:31:04] At the same time we also in some cases cannot know what kind of future unprecedented cross border movements Europe may see or where there might also be external shocks.

[0:31:15] That said, the pact does offer a number of avenues.

[0:31:19] On the one hand, we can of course consider that amendments were made to the pact legislation earlier this year.

[0:31:29] In particular if we think about the safe third country concept as well as the safe country of origin.

[0:31:32] That would have allowed the Spanish authorities after due assessment of course to also declare an application inadmissible on the basis of

[0:31:42] Aan de basis dat de, at least the Moroccan nationals that had crossed the border were from a safe country of origin.

[0:31:54] Dit is natuurlijk anders voor mensen die geen Marokkaanse nationaliteit hadden.

[0:32:04] Ze zouden worden beoordeld als ze effectieve bescherming hadden gehad in een veilige derde land, wat natuurlijk een goede procedure zou hebben nodig om deze beoordeling te maken.

[0:32:19] En dit is ook waarom we nog steeds vele duizenden mensen in Ceuta zagen, omdat hun situatie een beetje moeilijker was om te clarifieren en te beoordelen.

[0:32:23] And of course, as mentioned beforehand, the crisis in FOSMA's regulation was meant to precisely equip member states with additional tools in order to respond to situations such as those.

[0:32:38] That can for instance mean on the one hand, let's say in a fictional scenario, limiting access via certain border crossings in order to make those more manageable.

[0:32:50] Ook om meer tijd te hebben om asielrequests te processeren en deze te beoordelen.

[0:32:57] Should it be deemed necessary, right?

[0:33:02] If we think about the fact that the border procedure currently is limited to 12 weeks.

[0:33:05] So there are a number of provisions in this regulation that Spain or another member states could have made use of.

[0:33:17] But as we of course know, everything happened very rapidly.

[0:33:23] And there wasn't really a lot of space at the time to consider how, or at least that is how we perceived it, how the pact could have played a role and could have helped.

[0:33:27] Just to give some ideas.

[0:33:30] A follow-up question.

[0:33:32] Yes, thank you for your answer.

[0:33:36] Earlier you said Spain only has a draft law and not implemented it fully.

[0:33:46] Is that right?

[0:33:48] Just to open it.

[0:33:51] Yes, not building on the policy, Spanish policy life.

[0:33:58] But there is, the government has a difficult majority in the parliament.

[0:34:04] Which prevents Spain to adopt the implementing measures.

[0:34:10] But not to implement the pact fully.

[0:34:12] Because they are already...

[0:34:14] In de externe borders management en border procedures.

[0:34:19] Border procedures are already covered by national law in Spain.

[0:34:25] And there are also anticipated elections in three weeks, I think.

[0:34:31] I think this explains a little bit why it was not possible for Spain to adopt the law.

[0:34:39] But I wanted just to add something on the Utah event, which is important, because you ask how to prevent this arrivals.

[0:34:50] But the fact is, the pact is mainly an internal tool.

[0:34:54] It's mainly, it intends to solve internal problems on asylum immigration between member states.

[0:35:02] Not really

[0:35:03] To prevent arrivals, because this is about external dimension of the migratory policy of the European Union with partnerships and agreements.

[0:35:14] Of course, there are elements of the PAC that could have, that could disincentivize the arrivals, like border procedure containment at the external borders.

[0:35:24] But most of the PAC tools are there to solve the internal problem and

[0:35:33] To limit also not the dependence but the fact that mamba states can be affected by instrumentalization of migratory flows.

[0:35:47] It was also the case four years ago with Belarus for instance.

[0:35:54] Ik heb een vraag voor mijzelf.

[0:35:58] Eerst naar Nederland.

[0:36:00] Op het moment dat de pacte in effect kwam op 12 juni hadden we ongeveer 50.000 klanten nog aan het wachten en het IND veranderde zijn focus op de nieuwe toekomst.

[0:36:17] Did you look into that issue and how it would affect the 50,000 people already here?

[0:36:26] And how did it affect your opinion on the level of preparedness of the Dutch government for this pact?

[0:36:36] Yeah, so one thing perhaps to note here is our understanding is that the question of how the transition from one asylum system to another one was one that remained unresolved until

[0:36:53] a rather short period ahead of the June 12th deadline.

[0:36:57] So this is not something unique to one member state or another, but rather where a decision was made to say that June 12th was going to be a deadline and it was going to be a cut-off date, so

[0:37:09] All applications made prior to June 12th were still going to be handled under the previous rules.

[0:37:16] All those that were received afterwards were going to be treated under the new rules.

[0:37:21] But that was left a little bit to member states to then see what that would mean, considering that...

[0:37:24] Legacy caseloads veranderden ook van een member state naar een ander.

[0:37:31] De reden waarom ik dit noem, is omdat ik denk dat deze onzekerheid ook een impact had op de hoeveelheid die member state autoriteiten ook kunnen voorbereiden voor precies deze situatie.

[0:37:44] Zelfs tijdens een tijd waarin arribernummers en ook applicaties

[0:37:49] for asylum are largely seeing a downward trend with some exceptions here or there when you look at certain nationality groups.

[0:37:58] We did not specifically ask about how this would be treated because that information was not known to us at the time where we were still collecting information to inform the analysis.

[0:38:10] However, what we understand is that plans were being made and that this process was very clear but not that specifically what measures were going to be taken in order to prevent a situation where for instance persons may not have sufficient information about what would happen to their application.

[0:38:36] So this kind of information we

[0:38:37] we did not obtain at the time.

[0:38:40] But all I can say is that it was clear that this was going to be a challenge, but the specificities were still being figured out.

[0:38:53] Yes, if I can add something.

[0:38:56] I think overall this is a backlog and there is backlog issues with the backlog in different member states for years now.

[0:39:07] Hier is het een beetje specifiek, omdat er de pre-packed files en de nieuwe files zijn.

[0:39:20] Maar dit voert een beetje wat ik eerder heb uitgelegd.

[0:39:28] Dat je duizenden mensen hebt met misschien meer tijd nodig om de asielapplicatie te beoordelen.

[0:39:31] Wat betekent dat je duizenden mensen in je receptiesysteem voert.

[0:39:35] the pressure on the reception system and with an additional potential exposure to new arrival.

[0:39:43] And this is why we identified this as a domestic constraint and a weakness in the starting point for member states.

[0:39:53] And there was also, for example in Belgium, asylum agency support to try to reduce the backlog before implementation of the pact.

[0:40:06] Dank u.

[0:40:07] Meneer Koudemans.

[0:40:08] Dank u.

[0:40:10] De invloed van asielbezoekers vandaag in Nederland is ongeveer zo hoog als het was voor de start van de pacte in juni.

[0:40:16] Wanneer denk je dat de pacte smootbaar zal functioneren over het aantal asielbezoekers die in Nederland komen?

[0:40:31] This is a difficult one because as we said this is difficult to predict the future and the fact there are different dimensions in your question.

[0:40:42] There are rivals to the Netherlands.

[0:40:45] First of course the more you have rivals at the external borders the more you will have secondary movement.

[0:40:51] I don't think even with the pact you will achieve zero secondary movements because people are moving across member states for

[0:41:00] Very different reasons.

[0:41:02] And not all those reasons can be solved by a pure application of European asylum law.

[0:41:09] Even if you have super even reception conditions and asylum conditions in each member state.

[0:41:18] There are diaspora, there are socioeconomic conditions.

[0:41:23] There are different things that you cannot solve through the pact.

[0:41:28] So this is the first thing.

[0:41:30] Then I think it's both, yes, medium term to see if the tools of the pact are effective.

[0:41:41] Do reception conditions improve in other member states and limit, for example, the judicial intervention in the Netherlands to suspend transfers?

[0:41:51] If you have more transfers to external board of member states,

[0:41:58] Does this disincentivize the fact that applicants are coming to the Netherlands because they know they will be sent back to the member state responsible?

[0:42:09] So this is something, this is about trust between member states, but trust also in the system.

[0:42:16] And then the fact that this message also passed to applicants actually.

[0:42:22] And I think it takes...

[0:42:25] months or even years to see that.

[0:42:32] And a follow-up?

[0:42:34] Okay, thank you.

[0:42:34] But if the pact is working as it is intended, the only people that try to register themselves here are the few people that come here by plane on Schiphol Airport.

[0:42:42] Is that correct?

[0:42:47] What do you mean by register?

[0:42:50] The first application in the Netherlands?

[0:42:54] Yeah, it

[0:42:55] Yeah, that's clear that the position of the Netherlands, like Belgium, is super specific.

[0:43:01] You have external borders at your airport, so your border procedure is contained there.

[0:43:07] But then, of course, external border member states, they have sea borders, for instance.

[0:43:13] So maybe there are gaps in implementing screening and Eurodac, but also all these tools depend on the fact

[0:43:22] dat mensen op een externe grens worden aangevraagd.

[0:43:26] Dat is niet altijd het geval met de zeeborden.

[0:43:30] Het kan gebeuren dat groepen van mensen doorgaan en niet worden bevestigd in de eerste maatschappijen.

[0:43:37] Maar ja, natuurlijk zijn er automatisch een aantal applicaties in Nederland waar mensen vandaan komen uit andere maatschappijen.

[0:43:49] But you have more than your external border at Schiphol.

[0:43:54] You have also visa-free applicants, for example.

[0:43:57] You could have visa-free applicants that come to the Netherlands and apply for asylum.

[0:44:03] But also people with visa that apply for asylum to the Netherlands.

[0:44:11] But this will be...

[0:44:12] Normally more detected with the entry-exit system, because overstaying will be better detected.

[0:44:31] Mrs.

[0:44:31] Van der Plas.

[0:44:31] Yes, thank you, chair.

[0:44:33] You stated a few conclusions in your presentation.

[0:44:39] wat er is gebeurd voor, tijdens en na de implementatie.

[0:44:45] En mijn vraag is, als je kijkt naar Nederland, wat zouden we als parlement, maar ook als regering, wat zouden we beter hebben gedaan in het hele proces, voordat we de migratiepact implementeerden?

[0:45:04] Did we miss certain risks?

[0:45:08] Did we miss certain consequences?

[0:45:14] Basically, did we do our job right in the process before implementation?

[0:45:23] Can you give us a few?

[0:45:25] You already said it in your presentation.

[0:45:27] Could you maybe give us a few tips on what can we still do?

[0:45:35] Because we were all very critical on the migration pact.

[0:45:40] And we still are.

[0:45:44] It doesn't fully work, in my opinion.

[0:45:50] Yeah, I can make a start perhaps.

[0:45:52] So again, we didn't specifically look and examine your role.

[0:45:57] We of course took note of queries that were put out of the kinds of questions that you also had vis-à-vis the ministry and the government.

[0:46:10] I think I'm happy to maybe mention a few overarching things and then zero in on a few others.

[0:46:17] I think

[0:46:17] One issue that we encountered relates to transparency.

[0:46:23] So of course it seems rather self-explanatory or self-evident perhaps, but this process is an extremely complex one.

[0:46:33] There are many interdependencies and even among or between member states it is not always clear what is going on.

[0:46:38] En dus denk ik dat het hebben van alle beschikbare informatie... ...een belangrijk element is om te begrijpen wat beter kan worden gedaan.

[0:46:51] Misschien niet zo veel retroactief, maar ook in het gaan verder.

[0:46:59] Een tweede punt die we nog niet hebben aangepakt... ...maar die we ook hebben aangepakt in dit onderzoek, gaat over fundering.

[0:47:03] Van wat we hebben gesproken, waren de meeste member-staten... ...meer geconcentreerd op het naarmiddag in termen van hun financiële planning.

[0:47:17] Dit maakt zin, want een tweejaarsperiode werd specifiek gealloceerd... ...voor voorbereiding voor implementatie.

[0:47:23] Er was ook extra EU-financiële steun.

[0:47:27] Maar we weten ook dat met de budgettelijke negotiaties op EU-niveau...

[0:47:31] nearing the final stages, that there's still some very difficult questions to resolve.

[0:47:37] That could also see some funding being taken away from one part and being moved to another, precisely because there are a number of member states, Netherlands among them, that are of course not keen to keep the budget in the size

[0:47:51] That the commission initially proposed it.

[0:47:55] So I would say ensuring a more sort of medium to long term planning.

[0:48:01] Having some kind of predictability in terms of the financial resources.

[0:48:05] Can help also address some of the remaining gaps or constraints that are being perhaps felt now.

[0:48:12] Or that were still a challenge up until the period until June 12th.

[0:48:16] This can boil down to very concrete things such as staffing, maintenance of IT systems, infrastructure maintenance, etc.

[0:48:28] That would be a second general point.

[0:48:31] I think the third one is in relation to continuing to have a dual focus on addressing longer standing systemic issues and examining these vis-à-vis specific challenges resulting from compliance with the rules.

[0:48:49] That is in a way internal homework that can be done because the Netherlands has of course set itself some medium to long term goals when we think about the example of efficiency gains in asylum processing

[0:49:01] Maar ik denk dat we een heel realistisch beoordeling hebben van hoe dat compatibel is met sommige van de uitdagingen die de autoriteiten op dit moment bevinden.

[0:49:11] can also help identify issues sooner, and then also mitigate potential implementation challenges.

[0:49:20] So I think keeping this dual focus, because we are again not suggesting that the pact rules are functioning across the board as they should, but rather that some more homework needs to be done.

[0:49:33] I'm sure we can also think of a few others, but I would maybe leave it at that for the time being, unless you have anything to add.

[0:49:39] Okay.

[0:49:42] Miss Loos.

[0:49:43] Yes.

[0:49:45] On October 13th, this year, an Italian judge questioned whether the border procedure of the EU migration pact is constitutional and

[0:50:06] If it's the case that the court rules against it, what would that mean for the entire pact?

[0:50:24] I have to admit that we are not fully familiar with the question raised in Italy and the constitutionality, because I'm not familiar with the Italian constitution.

[0:50:40] But I think this is not really about the border procedure as such.

[0:50:48] I think this is about the non-entry fiction.

[0:50:51] dat de fact that the external borders, applicants and people subject to return are not on the territory.

[0:51:01] And I think this is about this issue, which was, if I can remember correctly, already raised several times by Italy during the PAC negotiations, so the non-interfection.

[0:51:16] Maar dit is iets dat België en Nederland al jaren geleden hebben toegepast in de aardappels.

[0:51:24] Eigenlijk heb je deze fictie van 9-3.

[0:51:27] Dus ik denk niet dat als er een regering is, dit een groot impact zal hebben op de operationaliteit van het border procedure.

[0:51:38] Want Italië heeft al border procedures toegepast met mensen

[0:51:43] En de tien mensen aan de grens voor de pacte, in Lampedusa, je hebt de insulariteit, dat mag.

[0:51:51] Dus ik denk niet dat dit een operatieve impact zal hebben, maar meer een legale impact op wat de status van die mensen is.

[0:51:59] Zijn ze op het territorium of niet?

[0:52:01] Ik denk dat dit de vraag is voor Italië.

[0:52:06] En als de verantwoordelijkheid is dat het niet de verantwoordelijkheidswet is, maakt dat dan een verschil?

[0:52:21] En hoe verandert dat aan andere EU-staten of aan het Pact in het gebied?

[0:52:29] To be very honest, I think this goes beyond my competences on constitutionality.

[0:52:37] I don't think that a national ruling will have an impact on the states.

[0:52:43] It could if there is a ruling from the court of justice on the non-entry fiction.

[0:52:51] But I'm not predicting the future, but I would be surprised because as I said,

[0:52:56] Fiction of Non-Entre has already applied for years in Belgium at the airport in the Netherlands, so I don't think so.

[0:53:07] I have a question about the feasibility of the pact, specifically to the protection of vulnerable asylum seekers and border procedures.

[0:53:19] Are the countries' research, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Italy, are they well prepared and well staffed enough to make a good assessment on people's vulnerability within the 12-week border procedure?

[0:53:41] Thanks for the question.

[0:53:46] I think this can maybe be answered in two parts.

[0:53:49] On the one hand, it has a lot to do with, in very practical terms, how countries have organized the screening and then subsequently also the border procedure.

[0:53:59] If we take again the example of Italy...

[0:54:01] Het is een multistage proces en dat betekent om de procedurale bepalingen te verbeteren.

[0:54:22] Maar aan dezelfde tijd weten we ook dat deze strikte tijdlimits ook kunnen betekenen dat zelfs als er voorbereidingen worden gemaakt en zelfs als het proces heel voorzichtig is bedacht, dat het kan nog steeds, dat factoren zoals tijdconstrainten nog steeds kunnen betekenen dat bijvoorbeeld verantwoordelijkheden niet altijd worden geïdentificeerd zo vroeg als ze zouden moeten zijn.

[0:54:45] En dit was al geïdentificeerd als een potentieel risico goed vooruit van de actuele implementatie.

[0:54:50] As far as we also understand, there were some reports that pointed to the fact that in at least in Italy that there were difficulties in identifying vulnerabilities and that...

[0:55:07] Also in the Netherlands, for instance, there were some difficulties in identifying very visible vulnerabilities.

[0:55:18] So I would say, without having, again, being able to rely on some more recent reporting, for instance by the European Commission as part of its...

[0:55:27] Ja, als ik iets wil toevoegen.

[0:55:54] Normaal is een vulnerabiliteitsassessie doorgaande door de procedure.

[0:56:01] Op elke stap van de procedure is er een vulnerabiliteitsassessie.

[0:56:06] Maar de moeilijkheid nu is de pacte, denk ik, voor de autoriteiten.

[0:56:10] Dit is dat het screenen bijzonder consequent is.

[0:56:15] Want als vulnerabiliteiten niet worden geïdentificeerd tijdens de screeningsfase,

[0:56:19] The person can be channeled into external border procedures with detention or more difficult reception conditions without proper assessment of the vulnerabilities.

[0:56:36] Normally, as I said, this is an assessment that should be done through other procedures.

[0:56:43] This is also the possibility to step back if you identify later

[0:56:48] in de boordprocedure dat de persoon is een minor, for instance.

[0:56:53] But I think now the challenge is very at the screening phase and particularly for the Netherlands and Belgium because there are only three days to complete the screening on the territory compared to the external border screening which is seven days.

[0:57:18] I think we have time for perhaps one question.

[0:57:21] I'm not sure if... I'm looking at Mr. Kolemans who is jumping in his seat.

[0:57:29] Never?

[0:57:29] Okay, Mr. Kolemans for the last question.

[0:57:40] Do you see differences in the standards judges uphold in different member states for returning asylum seekers to the responsible member state?

[0:57:48] And if so, which countries are more strict and what effect does it have?

[0:57:51] And isn't the real problem that judges in, for instance, the Netherlands simply hold standards for returning asylum seekers that are too high?

[0:58:02] So you mean the judicial suspension of Dublin transfers?

[0:58:09] This is what you point out.

[0:58:10] I don't know if there are stricter rulings across countries.

[0:58:19] I think this is a very delicate question because of the independence of the judiciary system.

[0:58:30] I don't know if you want to add something on this, Elena, but

[0:58:33] They are of course general suspension.

[0:58:37] It was the case in 2011 to Greece with MSS and now it's been 15 years without maybe any transfers to Greece.

[0:58:51] So of course is it about the ruling or is it about the reception conditions in Greece?

[0:58:56] You know, this is the question I would say.

[0:59:02] Our next visit of the standing committee should go to Chris, right?

[0:59:08] That's our time for today.

[0:59:09] Thank you very much.

[0:59:11] I say on behalf of my colleagues here in parliament to the researchers of the European Policy Center, Ms.

[0:59:20] Han, Ms.

[0:59:21] Jacob.

[0:59:22] Dank u wel voor uw tijd voor het onderzoek en de tijd die u heeft gegeven om het voor ons te uitleggen.

[0:59:30] Heel erg bedankt en tot zover de afspraak.